Welcome!

I am glad you found your way to this site.  Please enjoy reading my reflections on this difficult and confusing topic of crossdressing.  The intention of this site is to build a network of resources and a community of people trying to fight their crossdressing addictions together, and giving each other encouragement and advice.  Further, I hope this site helps people to think about crossdressing from a Christian and biblical perspective.  Hopefully this site can help us to understand ourselves better and find healing and forgiveness in our Lord Jesus Christ.   This issue surely has caused most of us great pain, anguish, and frustration in our private, public, and spiritual lives.

I am not an expert.  I write out of my personal experience, my reading about crossdressing, my faith, and the theological education I have received.  I am a Christian pastor.  I myself struggle with the desire to crossdress and starting this site was one way for me to get support and healing for myself from this addiction while trying to help others at the same time.  In 2011, God gave me great victory over this struggle and I have been going strong ever since.  You can read more about my story on the “About” page.

Please feel free to comment and discuss even if you disagree with me.  While the point of this website is to help those who are trying to resist crossdressing, I welcome good comments from anybody even if you think crossdressing is a healthy activity.  I enjoy debating to a point, and will try to discuss with you in a healthy, peaceful way.  Perhaps we can have mutual learning and growth through the discussion.  I have been greatly helped by other bloggers, organizations, and articles which I have posted links to.  But as you comment, please keep in mind the purpose of my site.   I approve each comment individually.  I would rather just have comments completely open, but I have learned to monitor them because of past commenters crossing the line and harassing other commenters.

In some posts I do not make clear nuanced distinctions between crossdressing as a sexual fetish addiction and crossdressing as a result of gender dysphoria/transgenderism, and I have been criticized for doing so.  I am not ignorant to the important distinctions between the two issues.  But when I have not distinguished the two issues within an individual post, it is because my arguments against both issues are largely the same arguments and many posts apply to both issues equally.  There is far more overlap between these two gender issues than most people want to admit.  See this post for my thoughts about terms, labels, and types of crossdressers.

Thank you for being willing to read my thoughts.  If they help you, to God be the glory for what he has done in my life.  I thank him for being willing to use me.  Please comment below if you would like prayer in your struggle and I promise to dedicate time in prayer for you.

If you want some guidance in reading my posts, you can start with what I consider to be my “most important posts.”

Thorin

280 comments on “Welcome!

  1. thorin25 says:

    Amen Vivienne, stopping it now, and deleting all these worthless comments of this conversation, including most of mine. I am sorry to all of you that I let it go on as long as I did.

  2. A concerned wife says:

    Hi Thorin from what you have come to understand does Crossdressing always escalate?

  3. thorin25 says:

    I think you have asked this before :) Here was my response last time – Judging by what others say, it sounds like for some crossdressers it doesn’t escalate at all (take Ralph for example), and it remains something done in moderation and maybe could not be called an addition. For others, it escalates to the point of destroying families, or losing jobs, or finally thinking one should get a sex change (with some actually doing it). I know for me, that it is an addiction that escalates if I choose to give in to it. As much as I want to at times say that it’s always the case that it is obsessive addiction that escalates, it seems to not be so for some people. (though admitting that would still not make me think that their crossdressing is good). Addiction is just one part of why I think it is a problem.

  4. Concerned wife says:

    Dear Thorin,Sorry for taking your time. I don’t remember asking this before. Perhaps i’m having a senior moment oh dear.

  5. thorin25 says:

    No problem at all. I love keeping in touch with your group. Stop by any time!

  6. Ralph says:

    I would not only agree with Thorin but clarify that I think *most* of the time it grows out of control and contributes to ruined lives (by way of divorce, lost friends and family, exclusion from a church family, lost income from overspending/hoarding, even lost jobs).

    And I’m hardly the role model for self-control. A similar example is alcohol. I don’t find anything in scripture forbidding all use of alcohol; Jesus made wine for wedding guests and Paul instructed Timothy to use it to treat stomach problems (likely due to anxiety). So I do allow myself a glass or two of wine before bed to help me relax and get to sleep, and I don’t have a problem even with a stronger drink over dinner with friends. BUT — I’m also aware of the multitude of verses that warn against getting drunk, both in OT and NT, so I am painfully aware that I am walking a mighty fine line. And because alcohol dulls your judgement, even just having a little bit to help me relax makes me more inclined to have more after that without realizing how close I am getting to being fully drunk. So I’d be lying if I said I never get drunk; one minute it’s just a single glass at bedtime and the next minute the room is spinning as I finish my fifth glass.

    It’s the same with the crossdressing. I like to think I’m always the one in control, and I work hard to avoid the pitfalls mentioned here and elsewhere — no lying to the wife, no using it as a substitute for sex, no denying the masculinity God gave me, no letting crossdressing interfere with my financial responsibility, job, obligations to friends, or family life. But every time I buy something new, that’s money I can’t use for a gift for someone else or to donate to the poor. Every time I shut myself in my office while my (grown) children are visiting, I am letting the crossdressing interfere with spending time with those I love. Every time I change out of a more “girly” dress for something less flagrant before going to talk to my wife, I am deceiving her in a small way — she knows and sees me wearing whatever I like all the time, but I am also aware she only puts up with it because she loves me, so I try not to throw it in her face. And from that noble purpose comes the dark side of rationalizing the fact that I own and wear things she doesn’t know about.

    We all, every one of us, are at risk of losing control. That goes from unrepentant habitual crossdressers, to “casual” crossdressers like me who take it easy without escalating, to successful “recovered” crossdressers like Thorin.

    There’s only one way to master our desires, and that’s to submit to God. When I look at it objectively, my efforts to keep the crossdressing in balance is my way of saying “Leave it to me, God, I’ve got this!”

  7. Hello everyone. In regard to the question of whether crossdressing always escalates: I don’t know about always, but I think it often does. That was my experience too. I wrote a blog post the other day that addresses this. (I have two blogs; one on my de-transitioning process and one in which I try to spread the word about the harms in “gender identity” and “transgenderism.” This post is on the latter blog.)

    “Porn, Dopamine and Autogynephilia”
    http://transgendersurvivor.wordpress.com/2013/09/28/porn-dopamine-and-autogynephilia/

    CAUTION: I sometimes use strong and angry language in regard to transgender activism and the transsexual process. I am still healing as I come back to being a man after many years, so I am kinda mad about a lot of things.

  8. Hello again. A little off-topic, but as I know this blog maintains a Christian perspective, I thought it might interest you to know that Catholics are working to stop the gender identity movement.

    From the Catholic Online web site:
    http://www.catholic.org/hf/family/story.php?id=51873

    “The Bible tells the story of Jesus’ confrontation with the Gerasene demoniac. “And Jesus asked him, saying, ‘What is your name?’ And he said, ‘Legion,’ because many devils were entered into him.” (Luke 8:30; see also Mark 5:9; cf. Matt. 8:28-34).

    In the Greek text, the word “Legion” (Λεγιὼν) is used; however, the word is Latin in origin. It refers to a unit of soldiers in the Roman army, varying between 3,000 to 6,000 foot soldiers and cavalry. Figuratively, it means a large number.

    There is a new Legion among us in the form of transgender community. This community bases itself on a false philosophy of sexuality which is gnostic and dualistic in nature. It is fundamentally anti-God and anti-Christian, and deeply anti-marriage and anti-family.

    It is gnostic in nature in the sense that it rejects the human body as providing any norms, as being in any way a gift of a Creator to which one is answerable.

    It is dualistic in that it divides the body from the soul or mind into two separate substances, deprecating in the process the body.

    The proponents of this deeply-flawed philosophy (which is mainstream in our education facilities and academia) start with the demonic (and irrational) assumption that sex identity is not something one is given by nature or nature’s God. It rejects the teaching of nature and nature’s God. It rejects the teaching of Scripture. It is therefore anti-God.

    Because it challenges the complementarity of the sexes, an essential component of marriage and family life, it is also intensely anti-marriage and anti-family.

    Instead of relying on nature, on what is, the proponents of modern gender theory argue the real reality is ideal, that is, in our minds. The more important reality is not our sex, but our gender, which is something one decides for one’s self. In other words, a person who subscribes to a transgender philosophy believes that he or she has autonomy to decide whether he will be he, he will be she, she will be she, or she will be he. And all these decisions are equally good.”

  9. thorin25 says:

    Amen to that. It is very gnostic and it’s interesting how false beliefs have a way of continually creeping back up into mainstream. People say that we are supposed to have progressed in civilization but we are just going back to gnosticism, and our new modern gnosticism has technology to aid it in its foolishness.

    Transgender ideology is clearly unChristian, as you say, but incidentally it should also be clearly foolish to rationally minded secularists or atheists. If one cares at all about biology, I don’t see how they could accept the premises of transgender theory.

    I’ll go check out your other site now :)

  10. thorin25 says:

    I like the Catholic link, I’ll add it to my links page

  11. raulf says:

    El travestismo es un comportamiento de tipo lujurioso, que implementan las ´personas para intentar llenar los vacíos del alma. Pero la única manera de llenar los vacíos del alma en el ser humano es restaurando la relación con Dios; recuperando mi identidad en Dios, (dios nos hiso a su imagen y a su semejanza), pero han venido extraños a distorsionar la verdad de Dios. Y se buscan muchas excusas para satisfacer los vacíos del corazón del hombre. En otros caso son el licor, las drogas compras compulsivas, orgullo, etc.
    La lujuria y el deseo sexual es un barril sin fondo, que nunca se tendrá saciado al individuo; y hay muchas insatisfacciones que las quieren solucionar con sexo
    Uno de los desafueros de los humanos fue nuevamente intentar contradecir al Señor; cuando el hombre se vio desnudo intento cubrirse a su manera, y como no quedo bien vestido, ( o cubierta su desnudez Dios tuvo que hacer el primer sacrificio despues de la creación); y vistió,o cubrió los cuerpos de Adán y de Eva, con TÚNICAS; ( Dios les había podido vestir unos pantalones, o unos leggins; pero la idea era cubrir, y vestir; y no CEÑIR y desnudar).
    This Hice la traduccion con el traductor de google, de español, un ingles
    The pants are the garment less suitable for a man, the boxer briefs, acts as a splint on the genitals, (promoting dysfunction and disabilities), the center seam of the trousers abused, bruised and uncomfortable all the time the genitals, the belt or belt acts as a tourniquet, and forces the heart to pump blood more effort (to overcome the contraction that makes the tourniquet), and poor irrigation affect blood: the digestive system, the urinary system, the reproductive system. Besides using the man trousers finished urinating standing which is totally unnatural. Skirts and dresses with skirts for men are supremely mind HEALTHY, COMFORTABLE AND COMFORTABLE. The pants, tight underpants, the center seam of the pants, and the belt or belt, are promoting modern diseases of men: impotence, infertility, PROSTATE PROBLEMS AND POSSIBLE CANCER TESTICLE.
    No part of the male body that are abused genitals more.
    For better health and comfort wear SKIRTS OR DRESSES WITH SKIRT
    Thanks for your time and attention.

  12. thorin25 says:

    Raulf, I translated your part of your comment that wasn’t in English. I’m confused as to what you are trying to say, and confused about why you used two languages. Your first part makes it sounds like you think crossdressing is about a bad kind of lust, and the second part seems to be you advocating that men should wear skirts.

  13. Dramaking55 says:

    Raulf, I would appreciate knowing the basis for your argument against men’s clothing for men. Please cite where you arrived at your conclusions.
    Andrew

  14. raulf says:

    Cross-dressing is an inadequate exhaust valve for people who have been victims of abuse and physical abuse , and / or emosionales .
    By common sense we can look in a mirror without premndas dress and see if there are male and female; God is not mistaken when we assigned sex. Humans can try to justify their behavior and desires in many ways, but there are fundamentals and principles and values ​​that are immovable . And if someone wants to change will have dire consequences , even now , and then for eternity. It is best to ignore it, and obey the instructions of coexistence of the Great Designer , who is the Lord our God , and that in many ways we have been talking . You have to re-read the Bible, and ask the Holy Spirit will help us to implement, and to live according to God’s purpose , and not according to the dictates of the world.
    The skirts issue has to do is to health , comfort and respect that I give to people, and myself .
    Historically we had men dressed in tunics , skirts , or dresses not bifurcated , but about 300 years ago someone has imposed pants uncomfortable , which is up unhealthy.

  15. raulf says:

    This Hice la traduccion con el traductor de google, de español, un ingles
    The pants are the garment less suitable for a man, the boxer briefs, acts as a splint on the genitals, (promoting dysfunction and disabilities), the center seam of the trousers abused, bruised and uncomfortable all the time the genitals, the belt or belt acts as a tourniquet, and forces the heart to pump blood more effort (to overcome the contraction that makes the tourniquet), and poor irrigation affect blood: the digestive system, the urinary system, the reproductive system. Besides using the man trousers finished urinating standing which is totally unnatural. Skirts and dresses with skirts for men are supremely mind HEALTHY, COMFORTABLE AND COMFORTABLE. The pants, tight underpants, the center seam of the pants, and the belt or belt, are promoting modern diseases of men: impotence, infertility, PROSTATE PROBLEMS AND POSSIBLE CANCER TESTICLE.
    No part of the male body that are abused genitals more.
    For better health and comfort wear SKIRTS OR DRESSES WITH SKIRT

  16. Anonymous says:

    Pursuant to your invitation, i will leave you the very brief introduction that was deleted over at Jack’s.
    A.QuietVoice said…
    Perhaps I should introduce myself so that you might have an alternative understanding of who it is that Jack and Jo are so desperate to demonize and silence.

    I underwent a life saving medical procedure, now known as SRS in the early 1970’s. I did this NOT because I thought that “I was a woman trapped in a man’s body”, or because I did not “identify with my gender assigned at birth”. I did it because I KNEW that I could not continue living with the sexual morphology of a male.

    I can assure you that this was not a step taken lightly or without the most profound and prayerful consideration. Perhaps if the occasion presents itself, I might share just a bit of what that entailed with you in the future.

    After that operation, my life essentially normalized. I went on to marry and live what I can only describe as a happy and productive life. I am still married to a wonderful man and just a few years short of 70

    A few years ago, having lived 3/4’sof my life as a woman, I became aware of just how difficult it seemed to be to find competent compassionate care for what quite frankly, is an easily treatable condition if, and only if, it PROPERLY diagnosed and treated early.

    Upon further investigation, I discovered that what had been, in the late 60’s and early 70’s, a clearly defined condition, had now become a political movement for “transgender” rights.

    Instead of carefully diagnosing and distinguishing between a transvestic urge, fetish, or a simple gender confusion and a clear irreconcilable need to actually change one’s sex, a generation of transvestites/cross dressers and homophobic gay men had morphed/”evolved” the language into a now commonly accepted “gender-blend”, or “trans* umbrella”.

    Because I do not subscribe to this “we are all the same” transgender meme, I have been labeled all sorts of things from a “separatist” to a hateful bigot and worse.

    The truth is that I am a happy old wife and grandmother with little tolerance for self-important fools and bullies who are so afraid of confronting their own unresolved issues that they will attack anybody that does not immediately agree with Jack and Jo’s version of “The Truth”.

    I will await your thoughts and questions.

    Yours in Christ,

    A Quiet Voice

  17. thorin25 says:

    Hello A Quiet Voice, thanks for commenting! I can’t speak to your debate with Jack, and I’d rather not anyway. It’s not my argument. But thank you for sharing your story. From my point of view, I do think there are some very large differences between those like me whose crossdressing was mostly about a transvestic urge, and those who feel gender confusion to the point of getting surgery. However, I think there is a lot of overlap as well, and I have experienced some of the overlap in my own feelings over the years. I’ve written about that in some of my posts.

  18. Anonymous says:

    Forgive me for being unclear. When I speak of the differences between. “… a transvestic urge, fetish, or a simple gender confusion and a clear and irreconcilable need to actually change one’s sex”, I am speaking in terms of apples and oranges. For many perhaps in the trans*movement, or who identify as trans* or transgender, the issue may involve gender confusion. In the case of a total psycho-sexual inversion, there is no confusion. Only a terrifying reality.

    While apples and oranges are both clearly edible foods, I think it is a stretch to imply or infer, ” lot of overlap as well”.

  19. thorin25 says:

    What do you think about all of the men whose dressing begins as a sexual turn on, but ends years later with a sex change surgery and living as women the rest of their lives? I’d call that overlap.

  20. Anonymous says:

    Please forgive me for being coarse, but what you describe is a tragic mistake. It results from the ‘blending” or conflating of two distinct conditions which is now the norm or standard protocol as promulgated by the WPATH Standards of Care, (SOC).

    I hope that you will understand .that I share the greatest sympathy and respect for you and your brothers in faith. I applaud you for the courage it has taken to recognize this daunting affliction for what it is, and your prayerful efforts to deal with it.

    But more to your question about “overlap”, I understand that an apple and an orange are both fruits which grow on trees, but they are clearly different. Porches and bicycles are both methods of transportation, but again, clearly different.

    And one last point, that you might better understand my personal POV. I came to be where I am today, ONLY by the Grace of our Savior. There is no way that I could have done this alone. My being here today is to bear witness to His Holy Name and to share the Good News of our salvation through Christ. Yes we are all sinners, but we are saved.

  21. thorin25 says:

    This issue of whether there is overlap or not, of how different these things are, is really outside the main purpose of my blog, but it’s still an interesting subject that I’ve written about at times. I still think the underlying heart and mind issues are the same even though there are clearly different types of crossdressers and different types of transsexuals that are quite distinct, as you argue. I believe they are apples and oranges to some extent, and yet the feelings the apples and oranges are feeling are very similar, and the right solutions also similar. I do not believe the answer is ever to start living as the sex we were not born as, whether one is a child with extreme gender dysphoria, or whether one crossdresses for 10 years before desiring a sex change. In each case, I would argue that healing can be found in accepting who we were created to be, and going against harmful gender stereotypes that cause the problems in the first place. I know that you disagree. And I’m not trying to attack you as a person. So let’s just agree to disagree on that and leave it there. I don’t want to get into a big debate about that right now. I’m not trying to shut down our conversation. I just don’t want to get into a big debate about this subject on my welcome page. But you can peruse my posts and we can keep dialoguing! Thanks :)

  22. Anonymous says:

    I agree that this is not the proper forum for an in depth discussion of these truly complicated issues, and would like to thank you for maintaining an open mind and welcoming me into your community of prayerful sinners. This is a difficult and complex life we all live, but I believe that if we can find and the focus on our true purpose in this life, we can with God’s help, find our way home.

    I will look forward to meeting and perhaps interacting with some of your other readers on various topics and will reach out to you on your “questions” page where we might continue our attempts to further our mutual understanding.

    A Quiet Voice

  23. A Quiet Voice says:

    “This issue of whether there is overlap or not, of how different these things are, is really outside the main purpose of my blog…”

    Agreed. I found it to be a bit of a de-rail but felt compelled to respond because to cede that point would be to agree with something that in my opinion is untrue, at least in the context in which you presented it. In any case while it might serve as an interesting point of discussion, I agree with you that resolving it is not crucial to our mutual goal of assisting those that want to stop, or at least come to terms with their cross-dressing.

    “I still think the underlying heart and mind issues are the same even though there are clearly different types of crossdressers and different types of transsexuals that are quite distinct, as you argue. I believe they are apples and oranges to some extent, and yet the feelings the apples and oranges are feeling are very similar…”

    Again, I agree. It is those underlying issues which we all have in common. I believe all humans, both men and women, share in these basic needs for food, shelter and human intimacy. I believe Our Lord in His wisdom, has provided the means to address these needs, and it is our own self-imposed hubris that impedes us in satisfying those needs.

    I believe, and please understand that this is my personal belief, that all of us, by virtue of being born, are indeed traumatized by our separation from our Heavenly Father. I believe that taking on a human form, with all its myriad and wondrous imperfections, is how we grow and merit our heavenly reward. We all were given our earthly challenges. We each were given our own individual crosses to bear. If we choose to take up our cross and follow Jesus, we know the path will not be easy. But we also have faith that if we do take up our cross and follow Jesus, that the journey will bring us home. This is the basis of our faith, This is the Good News.

    “. …and the right solutions also similar..”

    Yes. This is where our beliefs and understandings begin to differ. It is here that I propose that we begin our discussions because it is here that, because of our different personal experiences and perceptions, our personal understanding of this condition understandably differ.

    Having said that, I will agree with you that in the majority of cases, “the answer is (not) ever to start living as the sex we were not born as, whether one is a child with extreme gender dysphoria, or whether one crossdresses for 10 years before desiring a sex change.”

    There are indeed various alternatives to this conundrum. None of them are easy, and all of them are fraught with pain, danger, and absolutely no guarantees of success. One can only pray, persevere and work mightily to maintain our faith

  24. thorin25 says:

    Good comment. Please understand that while I disagree with the decision to get a sex change surgery, and consider it sinful and foolish, I would never condemn you or anyone else to hell for doing so. That sounds obvious to say, but so many misconstrue my beliefs to say that that is what I believe.

    If we both believe in Jesus as our Savior, we will both be saved and completely forgiven for all of our sins. When we get to Heaven, both of us will realize all kinds of things we were both wrong about. These gender issues are very complicated, and one can come to different conclusions. I mean, it seems clear to me, but obviously there are Christians that disagree about this all over.

    I have a lot of posts about transgender issues. Some of the arguments I hear from the transgendered crowd anger me a lot. I find many very illogical. I’d be interested to know what you think as you read them. Feel free to comment on them. Likely some might offend you, likely you might be able to give me good insight into some of them.

  25. thorin25 says:

    A Quiet Voice, looking again at your story I am very interested to hear more. How did you reconcile getting the surgery you did and living as a woman with your Christian faith? What did you do to work through this and what/who did you use to help you work through this difficult issue? What Scripture passages were troublesome for you or encouraging to you? I have a hard time seeing how you can believe that what you did was okay or necessary, but at the same time seeming to agree with me that crossdressing is not good. And you are a Christian. I’m not picking a fight, not at all. I’m genuinely interested if you are willing to share more.

  26. A Quiet Voice says:

    I understand and genuinely appreciate your interest. At first glance, and even after some serious thought, it is indeed a daunting conundrum. The answer lies at the very heart of my personal relationship with my God, and this is something so sacred that I cannot in good conscience bear my soul to that degree. Nevertheless, I will share as much as I can here as openly as I dare.

    I see God as my Heavenly Father; the source and reason of everything that exists. He reigns in heaven as the Creator and Lord of the entire universe, beyond even the seemingly infinite reaches of the known universe. Jesus is my direct connection to my Father. I believe that Jesus walked on this Earth as the incarnation of God and speaks directly to us through the Gospel. In addition we have this mysterious entity described/known to us as the Holy Spirit.

    I am not sure if I have shared this with you or your readers, but I have always enjoyed an extremely close and personal relationship with God. It is at the same time awesomely terrifying as well as ultimately comforting. It was this close relationship, and more specifically my clear and open dialogue with the Almighty, that gave me the strength and the guidance to do the unthinkable and submit my will to His Will and endure/accept the miraculous.

    Yes. I see my experience as a living miracle, and I have absolutely no problem with the skepticism of non-believers. In response to your question about what scriptures I may have considered, I can tell you simply, none. I relied solely on my experience with God in the form of The Holy Spirit

    If you are interested in delving deeper, I am willing, but only with your most faithful vow of confidence. While I do believe that you are a godly man, I am not so confident that all your readers have that capacity of Faith to appreciate what I might share. I will leave it up to you. I believe you have my email.

    Be well and God Bless

    A Quiet Voice

  27. thorin25 says:

    Thank you for sharing. I’m not sure if I was a little unclear in my question. Probably so. I’m not asking you to share anything too personal. I’m not trying to pry in that way. Rather, I’m asking what conclusions you have come to about these issues of transgenderism, transsexualism, whatever terms you want to use. And how your views fit in with your Christian faith. You chose to get a sex change surgery and live as a woman. Under what conditions do you think it is okay for a Christian to do this? I’m interested in your personal story as it relates to this, but please don’t share anything too personal with me. You don’t really know me, and I don’t feel right asking you to do that. But I am interested in hearing more about your general beliefs on this subject.

  28. A Quiet Voice says:

    Another difficult question, but at the risk of igniting a firestorm of controversy, I will do my best. Before I begin however, I must make the following disclaimer.

    I am not an expert. In fact I am not even well read on the subject, as I had pretty much remained oblivious to the angst and pain suffered by so many, once my own issues had been resolved and I had been made whole.

    I should also tell you that I have little direct knowledge or understanding of the seemingly irresistible urge to cross-dress. All I can honestly do is to surmise that it must be some sort of sexual target mis-identification or error. Why/how else could it be so compulsive?

    I can tell you this. When I was at my lowest point of despair, before I finally realized that I could not solve this on my own and ultimately stopped running from undeniable reality, I visited a Tri-Ess meeting. What I found there, quite literally, scared me sober. What I saw in that roomful of middle aged men in dresses, was my life in five, ten, or twenty years.

    Remember, this was in the middle to late 1960’s. There was no Internet and I had yet to gain access to a University library. All I really had to go on was a dim memory of a news bite I witnessed as a child of Christine Jorgensen and an hubristic belief that I could figure this out on my own.

    So what exactly was wrong with me? In a nutshell, I had been in denial of God’s Truth. I KNEW what He wanted and what he wanted was my unqualified love and trust. How could I deny my God? The one true God that had loved and cherished me since before I had even been born had invited me to trust in Him and submit to His will. How could I deny Him? How can anybody?

    Have I come to some conclusions about “these issues of transgenderism and transsexualism? Yes. I see both terms as relatively recent, and reasonably accurate, constructions from Latin roots to describe two obviously distinct conditions.

    Briefly trans-gender means simply to change, or more accurately ‘cross over’ gender, a social construct describing the different behaviors/roles/dress styles etc.

    Conversely trans-sexualism refers to changing or crossing over from one morphological sex to the other.

    Is changing sex a moral, thing to do or is it immoral, or maybe even amoral? I really can’t answer that in a general sense. I really am a pretty simple old woman and the way I see it, “If it works, don’t fix”. “If your eye offends thee or thy God, pluck it out”.

    I see trans-genderism as an ungodly alliance between an extremely secular political movement evolved from the Alinsky-esque environment in our schools and the need for public acceptance of the life-style CD, (IE: the transgender* or “trans-woman”).

    Hence my status as persona non grata at Jack’s site, as he views me as an anathema and a heretic for calling him out as an outright liar and a false wanna-be prophet.

  29. thorin25 says:

    Thanks! I don’t see the difference yet though in your explanations between transgender and trans-sexualism. Can you further explain this quote?

    “Conversely trans-sexualism refers to changing or crossing over from one morphological sex to the other.”

    I don’t understand what this means. Needs a little unpacking :)

  30. A Quiet Voice says:

    How do you understand the difference between sex and gender? Do you see them as different, or the same?

  31. Ralph says:

    From what I have seen, both in a gender identity context and a more general discussion on language, sex is pure biology and gender is a more abstract concept. That’s why questionnaires and forms that ask you for your gender are incorrect; they should be asking which sex you are.

    Historically “gender” was meant to be a linguistic part of speech — we assign gender to pronouns (him/her/his/hers) and some languages assign gender to definite articles indicating the gender of a noun (“der Transvestit”, and ironically “das Mädchen”) But I’m willing to accept use of “gender” to refer to a phychological state distinct from the physical sex. A person with gender identity issues might say “My sex is male but my gender is female”.

    Of course the problem with that is, the concept of psychological gender is extremely subjective. YOU might know what you mean when you say your gender is female*, because you have this set of characteristics in your mind that makes you female. But *I* have a totally different set of characteristics that I associate with being female, so we may never agree on your gender unless I am willing to just blindly accept what you claim.

    To make things more complicated, society’s definition of male and female has shifted dramatically over the centuries, even more so just over the last 50 years. Just last night I was listening to an old radio show featuring Bob Hope and Edward G. Robinson. Those of you old enough may remember Robinson as always portraying the tough, ruthless gangster. He and Bob were joking around about this tough-guy image and he said the G stands for Geranium, and he’s really a tender person. Bob said something like “Wow, you look tough but you talk like a pantywaist”.

    The distinction here is, prior to the gay revolution society accepted that someone could have delicate sensibilities but still be a man. Sure, he was a man to be mocked and belittled for his lack of machismo, but they didn’t leap to the conclusion that he was really a woman in a man’s body… just a man with a socially unacceptable level of sensitivity.

    Not sure where all this is leading, Quiet, except to say that if you ask several people what the difference is between sex and gender, and what “female” and “male” gender means, you’ll get conflicting answers because they mean different things for different people.

  32. thorin25 says:

    Lots of good thoughts there Ralph. Really interesting. I think I like the old times better when people were still thought of as men, even if they acted what might be termed “effeminately.”

    Quiet Voice, I agree on some level with the modern differentiation between sex and gender. I understand the definitions, that sex refers to biological male or femaleness, and that gender is an expression of your sex, which differs from individual to individual. What I chafe at is how these things are understood. Radical feminists and others have wrongly argued that our biological sex doesn’t determine our behavior at all. They are wrong. Study after study after study shows that there are real differences between males and females, which means that gender connects to sex. You can’t just divide them and say that your gender and sex can be different things. Sure, two women might have different gender expression, if you mean that they wear different clothing or talk differently, but they are still both women. Since this is the case, talking about gender expression or gender identity seems rather pointless to me. It’s about culture and individual expression. I’d rather just talk about someone’s “sex” and then talk about how they specifically act. I do not believe you can be a male and have a female gender identity. I believe that as a man you can act out what is a female gender identity, but I think this is unhelpful, wrong, and doesn’t make sense. That man is acting out a gender identity that doesn’t match his sex.

  33. Wosret says:

    Great post, other than I disagree that gender is so subjective. I don’t see why psychological traits cannot be correlated just as physical ones can, to establish categories. Being immaterial, they are not so easy to measure, if they can be measured at all, but that doesn’t make them private. As Wittgenstein argues, anything truly private cannot even be spoken of, must be past over in silence.

    It is true that “gender” originally referred to grammatical categories, but was introduced into this context by feminists, attempting to make a distinction between biology, and social constructs. However, biology uses the concepts of gender in modernity, relating to more than social constructs, but to describe behavior, and morphology. Check out this Wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_gender

    It outlines different species of animals with more than two genders, described by their different behaviors and morphologies, largely due to hormonal differences. Anthropologists have argued that homo sapiens is another species with more than two genders. I think that “transgenderism”, or gender non-conformity is an attempt to place oneself within a gender dichotomy that one doesn’t quite fit within. A third gender is historically how gender non-conformity was made sense of, in ancient Greece, and India.

    My own view, is that transitioning, or physical cosmetic modification is caused by the forced dichotomy, a response to the demand to toe the gender lines.

  34. A Quiet Voice says:

    Well…so there you have it,
    the proverbial Tower of Babel. You have my simple views and they work for me. I think all this sophistry is just so much psycho-babble which exceeds my pay grade, so I will leave it to the so called “experts’ who I believe honestly, do not have a clue.

    I agree that, “… two women might have different gender expression, if you mean that they wear different clothing or talk differently, but they are still both women. Since this is the case, talking about gender expression or gender identity seems rather pointless to me.”

    Unfortunately from my POV, you get dragged into that exact conversation when you engage thusly: ” It’s about culture and individual expression. I’d rather just talk about someone’s “sex” and then talk about how they specifically act. I do not believe you can be a male and have a female gender identity. I believe that as a man you can act out what is a female gender identity, but I think this is unhelpful, wrong, and doesn’t make sense. That man is acting out a gender identity that doesn’t match his sex.”

    We both agree that such a conversation is pointless since your premise, “gender identity” is such a nebulously loaded term. You and I Thorin, both understand the simple fundamental differences between a man and a woman. Bringing in the “logic” of gender just derails from the simple basic truths.

  35. thorin25 says:

    Okay, I understand your comment. But I still don’t know what you mean by this statement that I asked about. Not tying to debate, I just am still at the stage of trying to understand your view.

    “Conversely trans-sexualism refers to changing or crossing over from one morphological sex to the other.”

    Do you think it is possible to change from sex to the other? And what do you mean by morphological?

  36. A Quiet Voice says:

    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Morphology is a branch of biology dealing with the study of the form and structure of organisms and their specific structural features.[1][2][3][4][5][6][7]

    This includes aspects of the outward appearance (shape, structure, colour, pattern)[8] as well as the form and structure of the internal parts like bones and organs. This is in contrast to physiology, which deals primarily with function. Morphology is a branch of life science dealing with the study of gross structure of an organism or Taxon and its component parts.

  37. A Quiet Voice says:

    “Do you think it is possible to change from sex to the other?”

    Morphologically, yes. I know that I did. :-)

  38. A Quiet Voice says:

    The more scientifically inclined among you might find this link of interest: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allometric_engineering

  39. Vivienne says:

    I’ve been following this very stimulating thread since the beginning. Just a couple of points to add.

    Using the Freund-Blanchard model, A Quiet Voice would fit into the HSTS or “transkid” category, which explains why she has no particular affiliation or identification with male crossdressers like me.

    I think, to use her phrase, there is a great deal of sophistry and psycho-babble. I think we would all broadly agree in our definitions of “sex” and “gender”. So how does someone change sex? Can they change their DNA? (No). Can they change their hormonal profile? (Yes, with pharmacology). Can they change their appearance (morphology)? (Yes, with surgery).

    So it boils down to what, exactly, one uses to define “male” and “female”. And I know you all know that it’s possible for someone with an XY chromosome arrangement (karyotype) to look indistinguishable from a “normal” female, if they happen to have androgen insensitivity syndrome. In fact, in each category (karyotype, hormonal profile, and morphology) there already exist, within nature, individuals who don’t quite conform to the binary categories of male and female, either by being somewhere in the middle, or having some disagreement between their apparent sex and the one they “should” belong to if some arbitrary rules were applied (such as “all people with an XY karyotype are male sex”).

    In other words, “male” and “female”, using the strictest biological or scientific categorisation, are not soluble into black and white, but there exists a grey area in between.

    Finally, Thorin, I disagree with you that “study after study after study” shows that gender connects to sex. They are correlated, but the correlation is not absolute. It is true to say that, in general, men are taller than women, but there are some short men and some tall women; in other words, they overlap. Behaviour is the same. In general, men behave in a certain way, and women in a certain way, but there is a huge overlap between the two, meaning that no absolute standard, or paragon, of masculine or feminine behaviour exists.

    Vivienne.

  40. A Quiet Voice says:

    Nice input Vivienne. Just a couple of minor areas where I have a different perspective, but really not worth a debate. The first is that I am not familiar with the Freund-Blanchard model that you refer to but I have heard of Blanchard’s theory of autogynephilia which I think is severely flawed In many ways despite being an accurate description of the symptomology of most transgender and cross dressing people.

    Secondly, because AIS is extremely rare, I think one needs be very careful when trying to draw generalities.

    Finally this: “It is true to say that, in general, men are taller than women, but there are some short men and some tall women; in other words, they overlap. Behaviour is the same. In general, men behave in a certain way, and women in a certain way, but there is a huge overlap between the two, meaning that no absolute standard, or paragon, of masculine or feminine behaviour exists.”

    I can agree with this if you are clear that those overlaps are statistically insignificant considering that they most likely occur beyond the second standard deviation: IE, less than 2%

  41. Vivienne says:

    Hi Quiet Voice,

    I would be interested to hear why you think Blanchard’s theories are severely flawed. However, this might derail Thorin’s discussion here. Please feel free to contact me via my own blog, on which my email address is on the About Me page.

    I am not sure where your query on statistics leads. Human height (at a given age) is reasonably similar to the Gaussian distribution, but there is such great overlap between the sexes that, for a given individual, we cannot judge their sex with certainty from their height alone, although we may make an inference which must also specify a confidence interval. I am reasonably sure (though I haven’t actually crunched the numbers) that, for a particular individual whose height was roughly midway between the mean height for men and the mean height for women, the 95% confidence intervals would overlap those means. In this way, there would be no statistical way to tell if a person were a slightly tall woman or a slightly short man. I think this may be what you mean by “statistically insignificant”, but if not, please clarify.

    I used height as an example of something we can clearly measure, whose statistics are pretty familiar. On the other hand those aspects of human behaviour, masculinity and femininity, cannot be measured against any objective scale. They are purely arbitrary, and lack even an objective definition. Therefore any measurements cannot be normally distributed, and therefore any notions of statistical significance (based on the standard deviation) cannot apply. The measurement of height is therefore only a metaphor for the measurement of behaviour against a scale of “masculine-feminine”.

    Vivienne.

  42. thorin25 says:

    Vivienne, good point I believe we don’t disagree on this that much actually. You said –

    “Finally, Thorin, I disagree with you that “study after study after study” shows that gender connects to sex. They are correlated, but the correlation is not absolute. It is true to say that, in general, men are taller than women, but there are some short men and some tall women; in other words, they overlap. Behaviour is the same. In general, men behave in a certain way, and women in a certain way, but there is a huge overlap between the two, meaning that no absolute standard, or paragon, of masculine or feminine behaviour exists.”

    I didn’t mention this just now, but in other posts I’ve talked about this very thing. I think biologically speaking we can say that “generally, this is what men are like, and generally this is what women are like,” but this doesn’t entail that we know exactly what a specific man or woman will be like. I like the spectrum model I’ve seen often, where some men are extreme on masculinity, let’s give them -4, and some women extreme on femininity, let’s give them 4. The reality is that almost all people would be between -2 and 2, with only a few people on the extremes. So for men they might fall between -4 and 2, and women -2 and 4. So this means that some individual men will be more towards femininity than some individual women. But this also means that we can still say there is some biological causation for male/female behavior, in general terms, on average.

    So as you said, they are correlated, bu not absolute. There is a lot of overlap in the middle. The overlap I believe is why we shouldn’t get too hung up on gender stereotypes (which I think are sometimes helpful but often harmful), and why we shouldn’t focus too much on the differences. God made male and female different, and the differences are beautiful, but we have to constantly remind ourselves as well how much we are the same.

  43. thorin25 says:

    A Quiet voice, thank you for your response. So since we are both Christians, help me to understand your view from a theological point of view. Do you believe God made you female, but that as a result of the Fall, you were born with a flawed body, a male body, in a similar way that someone might be born missing a limb? And so you used medical help to rectify the situation? This is the best view I can think of theologically along these lines, but perhaps this is not what you believe, but something different?

  44. A Quiet Voice says:

    To tell you the truth, Thorin, I really have no idea what goes through God’s mind. This most definitely exceeds my pay grade. I think it is not our place to question His motives, I am not trying to avoid your question, but honestly, I just don’t know.

    I do know that I was born with a serious challenge, but as promised, God provided me with the guidance and the means to successfully address that challenge. I also think that your analogy to a missing limb is a good one.

    I think what is relevant to your mission here is the power of prayer. What I have learned about that is the importance of listening. One cannot simply pray for God to “save them”, rattling off some litany of chants When I pray, I first give thanks for my many blessings. I meditate on those blessings and look for ways to ensure that I merit and am worthy of such love, I look for ways to make sure that I am using those blessings for the purpose that God intended. I try to focus on those to remind me of just how much worse things could actually be.

    Then I pray for guidance and for strength. This is an important part of my prayer for obvious reasons. The key here is to make a definite and concerted effort to LISTEN for an answer. One needs to silence one’s mind and try to quiet the soul in order to actually get an answer to their prayers. You can’t just cry out, “God, SAVE ME!!”, and then run down to the local liquor store, or click onto your favorite CD site.

  45. thorin25 says:

    A Quiet Voice, thanks for the comment. I appreciate your close relationship with God, that is so important. However, I think that God’s commands for morality apply to all people, and what he says to individually has to fit with his will for all people. So for example, if adultery is sinful for all people. These issues of sex/gender can be thought about in the realm of ethics, beyond just what God tells us personally. And you obviously believe this too since I have seen you criticize some folks online about what they do or believe about this. So you agree that there is some objective truth to all of this, even if that objective truth is somewhat beyond our understanding.

    Do you believe that what you did was only appropriate because of what God told you, or is appropriate for all people who have the same kind of feelings you did. If some 20 year old man came to you and described feeling the same kind of gender anguish that you did, would you counsel him to start living as a woman as you did, or that he should not, or that he should listen to see what God will tell him to do?

    You seem hesitant to make any firm judgments about this issue, even though clearly you made a judgment for your own case, and you have judgments about the rightness or wrongness of crossdressing it seems. I’m just not sure where the hesitancy comes in..or perhaps I’m not listening very well or not understanding what you’ve said thus far.

    I’m not trying to be harsh. Still trying to understand. Please forgive me if it seems harsh, I’m not trying to be offensive.

  46. A Quiet Voice says:

    Again I really cannot say, You say, “These issues of sex/gender can be thought about in the realm of ethics, beyond just what God tells us personally.”

    I am not sure that I can agree with you, as you are moving into a realm, ethics, which are subjective at best. God commands us, “Thou shalt not kill.” Yet we kill to eat and kill in the name god and country. You are asking me to make a judgment for others which I am not prepared to do. I have enough of a challenge making good judgments on my own behalf

    On the question of the 20 year old coming to me for counsel, I would counsel him as I have counseled you. Pray. Pray long and hard for wisdom and for strength to understand God’s will. Pray for mercy and then quiet our heart. Pray and LISTEN that the Holy Spirit might enter our soul with His guidance.

    We are fallible and imperfect by nature. The best we can do is our very best to know, love and serve God. That is our calling. What our morphology or form is relevant how? It is our life, is it not. This was our most precious gift. Are we not bound by good conscience to use that gift for the purpose that God intended?

    Not all of us are called to be fathers or mothers. Some of us are called to serve God in other ways

  47. thorin25 says:

    Okay A Quiet Voice, thank you for your response. Sometimes it’s good to say “I don’t know” and pray for guidance. (well it’s always good to pray for guidance :) But the thing I don’t understand is how forcefully you have debated with others on Jack’s site, and here. If you don’t know what you believe about these things, then why so forcefully criticizing others’ views? Again, not trying to be mean, that’s just how it came across to me….

  48. A Quiet Voice says:

    My argument with Jack is his lack of integrity. His entire premise, “cross dreaming” is just a re-naming of autogynephilia. In his own words he describes how he found the basis of Blanchard’s theory offensive in that it describes this “love of self as a woman”, as a ‘paraphilia’.

    Whereas Jack finds, or tries to justify, this behavior as normal, I do not. Rather than consider the obvious consequences of this behavior, he attacks anyone who tries to propose an alternative line of thinking.

    In my mind he is enabling self-destructive behavior. He simply will not/cannot(?), consider the possibility that he is intentionally conflating a sexually fueled paraphilia with an actual physiologically treatable condition, much like the “missing limb” analogy that you used, or AIS as referred to by Vivenne.

    You seem to be having difficulty with this simple distinction between trans SEX and trans GENDER. Perhaps it might help, if you explained it to me, because I seem to be having difficulty understanding exactly what you are asking.

  49. thorin25 says:

    I see, your disagreement with those at Jack’s site is about definitions and classifications and not with ethical questions. Makes more sense now. Thank you, we can leave it there for now. Now I understand a lot better your views and where you are coming from. Thank you for taking the time for that

  50. H.R. says:

    Hi. I just came across you site and have been reading all the comments. I am going to try and say more about myself later on. I have been a Christian for over 30 years. I cross-dressed more or less every day in some capacity until I was 49. I am now 58 and still struggling. I would like to rell you more of my story later on. H.

  51. thorin25 says:

    Hi H.R. thanks for stopping by! Glad to have you and I’m sure many people would enjoy hearing more about your story. There’s lots to read here, and I’ve linked to many interesting articles and organizations. If you want to read more of my own thoughts, this is a good place to start to see what you want to read – http://healingcd.wordpress.com/most-important-posts/

    In our prayer chain and community of men working to give up crossdressing, there are quite a few of your age and similar story of struggle. But many have also finally been able to give it up. I believe there is hope for this, even after your long history of crossdressing.

  52. H.R. says:

    Hi. Thanks for replying. As a young boy with all female cousins, my mum always told me that she too, had wanted a little girl. Oh, I know she loved me and I still love her. She is in her 90s and in a nursing home now. But she made those comments until I was well into my teens. I remember aged about 10, my mum taking me into a shop to buy a dress for my cousin and making me try it on to see if it looked good. My cousin and I were around the same age and size. Something excited me by doing that. That is my first memory. Ever since that day, I dressed at every opportunity. By the way, I am married with children and grandchildren…..all girls, lol. My wife has always known about me but doesn’t approve. Anyway, in my late 30s, (I was saved at this time) we lost our good Pastor and I couldn’t cope with his replacement. I stopped attending church and then I began dressing every chance I could. I bought full wardrobes of clothes and went out walking every Friday and Saturday nights. I also went out driving quite often and on one occasion I borrowed my daughter’s car and went out driving in daytime. 9 years ago, while outside dressed, I believe the Lord spoke to me. ‘How long are you going to continue with this’ He seemed to say. That made me uneasy and so I decided to get back to church. I stopped dressing ‘completely’. I had ‘purged’ many times before but always went back. Back at church, the Lord had many tasks for me to perform including preaching as we had no Pastor. I was enjoying my new found faith. For 7 years I walked the narrow path and then a new Pastor came. He was not what we wanted and through lack of good teaching and other things, I have now ‘toyed’ with c/dressing again. Not outside in public but just in the privacy of my home. Can I also add that during all my years of c/dressing, it was a release to me. I was calm, happy and you could not have picked a fight with me. I was the kind of person I should have been as a man. I have to be honest and say that I enjoy dressing. Some Christians have problems with drinking and smoking. I have my c/dressing. It makes me happy and relaxed. Two very good and understanding male (straight) friends took me out walking. It meant I could go places in safety where I couldn’t normally go. Again, it was so relaxing and calming. Sorry for going on but I could fill a book with my experiences. I have encountered police roadblocks while out driving and been chased by them. Thank goodness I had a fast car. The adrenalin was pumping like crazy on those occasions. Another problem is a wife (who loves me) who lost interest in bedroom activities many many years ago. My c/dressing helps me deal with this. At the moment, I feel like I need it.

  53. thorin25 says:

    HR thank you for sharing your very interesting story. I have read a lot of crossdressers’ stories and much of what you say sounds so very familiar. There is a lot of pain there, and struggle. I’m sorry for the difficult experiences you have gone through. So many of us have been hurt so deeply by this and had such times of confusion as well as marital struggle.

    I’m not going to write a long comment about why I think crossdressing is sinful and why you should stop. You can read my posts about those things if you wish. The link I gave you above shows some of the posts I think you might want to start with if you want to read more.
    http://healingcd.wordpress.com/2013/07/08/summary-of-why-crossdressing-is-sinfulharmful/

    I sense a few things in your story if I may be so bold. If I’m wrong about them, please forgive me. I only know what you have told me, so this is mostly guessing based on what I know of myself and other crossdressers’ stories. But maybe they will give you some interesting things to ponder.

    1. It seems like your dressing had a lot to do with feeling loved, and feeling special. You wanted your mother’s attention and wanted to please her. Maybe she was really pleased that you tried that dress on, and ever since then your crossdressing subconsciously reminded you of those pleasant feelings again over and over until crossdressing became a link to feeling that way. And maybe that is why you always could feel safe and secure and comfortable and calming while doing it, because it was like being with your mom, or even the more general feeling of being loved. Maybe it’s only about one of these pleasant feelings and not all of them. I don’t know what the case is for you. But for all of us there seems to be deep emotional feelings attached to crossdressing. I personally believe that we need to get those emotional needs met in healthy ways. I don’t think God intended us to feel loved, or relaxed, or secure, by putting a dress on, man or woman. Fabric shouldn’t be our comfort. God should be our comfort, or God working through other people.
    http://healingcd.wordpress.com/2012/09/28/deeper-reasons-for-crossdressing/
    http://healingcd.wordpress.com/2013/09/02/i-want-to-be-beautiful/

    2. You say you need to crossdress because your wife lost interest in bedroom activities. Perhaps your crossdressing was why she lost interest. It’s happened to countless other crossdressers so I think this is likely. Most women married men because they are attracted to men. The idea of a man who lives part time pretending to be a woman is not very attractive. On top of that, it’s finding delight in the feminine make believe woman instead of your wife. I see this as a way of committing emotional adultery (though it’s usually sexual too with crossdressers and masturbation). Perhaps if you stopped crossdressing completely, then over time she might regain attraction to you, or be willing to have sex with you to help you meet your sexual needs and have emotional and physical intimacy again in the marriage.
    Read these and see what you think if you have time – http://www.tbuckner.com/TRANSVES.HTM
    http://healingcd.wordpress.com/2012/03/02/becoming-the-woman-my-wife-is-not/

    3. The fact that you say “I feel like I need it” to me points to the seriousness of the addiction. I really enjoy playing video games, but I don’t “need” them. I think crossdressing easily becomes idolatry. Many crossdressers can’t give it up because it has become an idol in their life that they cannot imagine sacrificing, no matter what the cost to themselves, their marriage, and their relationship with God.
    http://healingcd.wordpress.com/2012/04/10/crossdressing-can-become-idolatry/

    I know I’m really blunt in this comment, but I believe God has brought you to this site for a reason, so I might as well try to speak truth into your life and see if you find help through it! Let me know if you want to discuss more. Praying for you!

  54. H.R. says:

    Hi thorin25. Thank you for your answer. It is appreciated. I will ponder over your comments and will get back to you. It may be a day or so as I am busy and we may have a time difference. I am in the U.K. Thank you again, H.

  55. A Quiet Voice says:

    FYI. I agree with everything that Thorin has said in this posts. I have not read the linked posts, so I will have to limit my agreement to what was stated here. I will read those posts as time permits and offer my thoughts if I think they might offer anything more of value.

  56. g says:

    I don’t think crossdressing is inherently sinful because of 1 Samuel 24:11

    Moreover, my father, see, yea, see the skirt of thy robe in my hand: for in that I cut off the skirt of thy robe, and killed thee not, know thou and see that there is neither evil nor transgression in mine hand, and I have not sinned against thee; yet thou huntest my soul to take it.

    and Zechariah Chapter 8:23

    Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

    It seems like men wore skirts and robes in the bible. Wow.

  57. thorin25 says:

    G. You are absolutely right, but you are also being simplistic. Different cultures are different. Wearing a skirt in the Hebrew culture of the Bible was not crossdressing. Wearing a skirt tailored for women in the Hebrew culture, was crossdressing. Wearing any kind of skirt today, other than a kilt, would in fact be considered crossdressing in our culture. The point is not to outlaw any specific clothing or cosmetic. The point is to dress according to the sex you are, and to generally follow the cultural customs of dress in a culture. Trying to dress and appear like a woman is night and day different from what the Hebrew men were doing wearing the customary clothing for men that happens to be somewhat similar to modern day skirts for women.

  58. Thorin…honestly this website serves no purpose. And I can prove it. As soon as you read this comment…you will delete it. Why will it be deleted? Because you think this comment will put a hinderence on your reasons for making this website. I say that because there is nothing wrong with crossdressing. Now you claim there is something wrong with it. Why do you think that??? In one of your blogs, you wrote that your older sister dressed you up in girl clothes when you were a kid. But then on your home page, you wrote that Jesus will help you find forgiveness for that. I’m sorry dude…but you can’t blame yourself for something that you didn’t do. If she made you do it…then she made you do it. But then also on this website…you call crossdressing a disease. How is that so? I’m a proud crossdresser and I don’t feel a bit sick. Diseases like cancer, HIV, or the common cold put your physical body in pain. Crossdressing doesn’t. So that’s a false accusation.

    I’m also wondering if you use this website as a shield. I think so considering you don’t use your full name. I see you’re a pastor of a church, a married man, and a father. Do they know about this supposed “struggle” that you have faced? If not…then why not tell them face to face so you can tell them how much god has helped you get away from this “crossdressing disease”?

    Lastly…don’t call crossdressing a struggle. Have you ever went days without food or shelter? Have you ever spent days in a 3rd world country trying to live the next day? Have you ever stayed awake at night wondering if your dad was going to burst into your room so he could rape you? That is survival…not fighting a temptation.

    I’m James Holdiness and I’m proud to be a crossdresser.

  59. Damaking55 says:

    Jim, Thorin is out for a while and I am moderating the blog in his absence. I appreciate that there was a thought that I woud delete your comment but I can’t understand why you would think that..

    This blog exists to assist men who are sick and tired of this sinful addiction. Many come here because we might be their last hope of finding fellow travelers that have been there and done that. I can assure you that Thorin has only put this blog together to let us all know that there is healing here and I have over 37 men who I speak to on a regular basis that would not be in the fight were it not for the blog.
    Jim, it is ok to comment however you feel but before you start thinking that there is no point to this blog,stick around and read some of our posts. Perhaps we can dialogue and we will just agree to disagree and that is OK.

    I do find it curious that if you know so much about our blog and our friend Thorin that you wouldn’t have understood that this blog is geared towards believers in Christ and follows for the most part a biblical worldview.
    So, why did you feel so compelled to comment that you were a proud cross dresser? just curious!

    Blessings
    Andrew

  60. Damaking…I stumbled upon this blog by googling Christians against crossdressing. As far as why I know so much about Thorin…as the current moderator of this blog, I would think that you would know that he posted other blogs on here about his past. I decided to read some of them before writing my previous comment since I like to do some research before stating my opinion.

    You also asked why I feel so compelled to comment that I’m a proud crossdresser? Because I am. I’m not ashamed of crossdressing. Why would I be? If I was ashamed of it…then I wouldn’t want anybody to know. I would just keep it to myself and not tell a soul.

    I’m just wondering…how come you never answered the questions I asked? Maybe I need to ask them in a different way? I’m wondering how come you (or Christians in general) think that there’s something wrong with crossdressing and why?

    Also…why do you (or Christians in general) call crossdressing an addiction? Have you, Thorin, or anybody who helps run this blog ever been addicted to cocaine, heroine, or any kind of mind controlled substance. People throw the word “addiction” around way too much. Being addicted to something means you would basically sell your children’s birthright for something. How many of you have ever done that for a pleated skirt?

    Also…why do you (or Christians in general) call crossdressing a sickness or a disease? How many men have you known who have been prescribed medication for wanting to wear a bra? Or how many men have you known who have either been hospitalized or died from wearing high heels?

    I’m James Holdiness and I’m proud to be a crossdresser.

  61. Dramaking55 says:

    Jim, I do appreciate that you are proud and I will give you my answers but you are not going to like them.
    1. how come you (or Christians in general) think that there’s something wrong with crossdressing and why?

    I can only speak from my experience Jim and that tells me that if I want a vibrant relationship with Jesus then that means that there are things that He doesn’t feel are the best for me or for any man. This would include adultery,idolatry and sexual immorality which includes cross-dressing. When I was out there, so to speak, I passed rather well and so for me it was a deception which is also considered lying. In all the years that I lived in that lifestyle I saw many hurt guys like me that went about looking for love, or acceptance as they say in all the wrong places. It is that God shaped vacumn that we want to fill with cross-dressing, alcohol, drugs, or sex and none of it really will fill that vacumn, which is why we all need a relationship with God.

    2.why do you (or Christians in general) call crossdressing an addiction?

    An addiction is something that is progressive and something the addict wants more of so I call it sex addiction as an umbrella term and if you check out some of the comments that I have made on this blog you will begin to see that cross-dressing for most guys is something that no matter what boundaries are self imposed they get crossed every time. Lets face it we are cross-dressers go further and further into femininity and before you know it you are looking for hormones or even surgery because we buy into satan’s lie that we aren’t good enough as men and we can’t or don’t want to be men that might be artsy, or softer and with emotions. If you prefer then just call it an obsession until you have found that it has taken over your life then call it an addiction.

    3. why do you (or Christians in general) call crossdressing a sickness or a disease?

    I don’t recall if I ever referred to it as a sickness or disease but the sickness is sin and I say that cross-dressing is a sin and cross-dressers are sinning when they cross-dress. Now the left in this country wants to label such a thought or statement as intolerant or even try to label it as hate speech but I say to those who want to buy into that crap that it is truth coming from a biblical worldview plain and simple so deal with it. I am here because over the years I have been there for many men who have sought the solace that this blog brings. These are my brothers that have just gotten sick and tired of being sick and tired. If you are here as someone that has been hurt by molestation or struggle with the why am I so different or depressed or any number of other maladys then enjoy your stay here. Read the many posts and comments, take a look at our guest posts and comment there as well and know that you can be proud of being a male and give up the constant day to day game playing of trying to be something you were never created to be.

    You can risk here and you can find a better way to live your life as the man that God created you to be. I hope I have answered your questions Jim and I hope you take advantage of all the great information you will find here. I will be praying for you brother!

    Blessings
    Andrew

  62. Damaking…I have crossdressed for most of my life. I do it because I prefer to wear women’s clothing over men’s and I like wearing makeup. For me…it’s not a sexual thing. So to call it a sex addiction…that’s not in my case. And as far as me going “further and further into femininity and before you know it you are looking for hormones or even surgery”…that’s completely false. I have never wanted to become a woman. I am a man. I do want you to know though…I have no problem with a person who has had a sex change. I believe that a person should be able to live their life without being ridiculed for not being “normal”. But as far as myself looking to alter my sex…it has never crossed my mind.

    As far as me feeling depressed because I’m different…what are you talking about? We are all individuals so we’re supposed to be different. I just prefer to call it unique. Just because I don’t try to fit in so I can have the most amount of friends…that would not bring depression on me.

    As a non-believer…I respect a person for trying to live their life for a deity just as long as they don’t try to cause harm toward others. But as far as me living a better life…I already live a great life. And since I have saw religion doing more harm than good…I think I’ll pass on the whole believing in god thing.

    Good luck with whatever you all are trying to accomplish with this blog. I personally don’t get it. And the reason why…if you are doing this to be Christ like…stop assuming and start researching before you comment. If you don’t want to seem like an ignorant person…know the facts first. Not all crossdressers are depressed sex addicts who are trying to cope. Some of us do it because we prefer wearing women’s clothes over men’s clothes. I don’t like eating fish. Why? Because of how it taste. But that doesn’t make me any less of a man for not liking how fish taste.

    But if this blog helps you sleep at night and just as long as you all aren’t trying to be another Westboro…keep on keeping on. I’m going to continue to do my thing.

  63. Dramaking55 says:

    Jim, I don’t believe that God wastes even a second nor is He in the least capricious. The Church (big C) is not concerned with anything other than our eternal security. Don’t go, because my feeling is that perhaps God has brought you here for a reason.
    You asked me to answer your questions and to the best of my ability I did so, however you must understand that our blog is about us as sinners so the answers are not so much concerning researching man’s information as much as speaking the truth as it pertains to my life’s experiences.
    God, looks at my heart, my intentions and the decisions and choices I make. Because the blog concerns the healing of this particular sin we then dwell on that sin but sin my friend is sin period!
    The word is actually an archery term and when your arrow misses the mark, it is said that you have sinned. Whether I believe in gravity or not, if I drop a pencil to the floor, then it falls by the force of gravity. I can stand around and say that gravity does not exist until I am blue in the face but if I drop a pencil it will fall to the ground 100% of the time.
    What I am asking you to do is to do the research, but leave out your own bias about Jesus Christ, all the feelings you have stored because the church screwed up and come to your own decisions. If you take the time to do so, you will not be able to logically say that there is no God.
    Lee Strobel in his book “The Case For Christ” explains in a very gripping way how he went from an athiest to a believer by doing the research necessary to come to his own conclusions about Christianity. Now here was a Chicago Tribune writer and a lawyer that made a conscious decision to check out the facts to arrive at a logical conclusion and when it comes down to whether you are right or wrong in that final decision will make for a huge difference as to how eternity looks for your future.
    You are on this blog for a reason, so put aside all prejudice and ask yourself one simple question, if you were to die today, would you go to heaven or hell and why do you think that?
    I am almost 59 now, and I was saved at the age of 8 but my salvation did not change the fact that I would be molested and turn to cross dressing to fill that void that was in my life. It was a while back that I came to understand that God wasn’t up in heaven cursing me and condemning me for my addiction and sin of deception and idolatry because He doesn’t do that. I was basically being told that my behavior was not really what God considered the “Best” for my life. Just like any other “Father” He only wants what is best” for us and when we stray from that mark just like the arrow when it misses that mark or the bulls eye we have sinned.
    So, forget about the CD for a while and concentrate on where you wish to spend eternity because everyone makes a decision either for God or against Him.
    One of my favorite quotes from C.S. Lewis is this:

    “I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept his claim to be God. That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God, but let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.”

    In Romans 14:11 it says:
    For the Scriptures say, “‘As surely as I live,’ says the LORD, every knee will bend to me, and every tongue will confess and give praise to God.'”

    Over 600 years before the Romans quote, Isaiah 45:23 says
    I have sworn by my own name; I have spoken the truth, and I will never go back on my word: Every knee will bend to me, and every tongue will confess allegiance to me.”

    and in Phillipians 2:9-11:
    …9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

    3 times both numerically and chronologically it says near to the same thing so how can you possibly explain that?

    Jim, I implore you to enter into this dialogue with us here. There is nothing and there is no one here to condemn you or ridicule you or mock you so stick around and talk to us.

    Blessings to you

    Andrew

  64. Terry says:

    I have something to share – but it is not posting for some reason…

  65. Terry says:

    I would very much appreciate your comments on my situation. I have been married for 14 years to a very beautiful woman – who accepts and even buys panties for me to sleep in. she knew about this desire of mine before we married, and she just wanted to please me in this. It is very helpful that we have had a wonderful sex life – she rarely refuses me, and then not for long. Nevertheless, I have had feelings of spiritual guilt about this.
    First of all, I have to commend you for your very descriptive articles about WHY men cross-dress – as I have found much in common with what you wrote. I have often times wished I could have been a beautiful woman instead of a man. I have even fantasized getting all ‘dressed up’ – but have never moved beyond the point of dressing up with some lingerie. I used to masturbate with it before I got married, and sometimes still with it when on trips or away from my wife – but the very fact that I have masturbated has made her very upset, and I have agreed not to do it anymore. I think it’s been about 3 years since I stopped.

    What has bothered me recently is this – I successfully stopped wearing anything at all for about 1½ years or so. I should add that we are both believers in Christ, and I even used to go into a prison & preach the gospel to the inmates, until I was kicked out for breaking a small rule. Anyway, this caused me to feel spiritually useless, and through a turn of events I felt that I just HAD to wear a thong to bed. Mind you, I have missed wearing it many times. My wife has bought me many pairs, and has even fulfilled my request to have it look as masculine as possible (all black – just a nylon thong) – the reason is that I find it extremely comfortable to wear to bed, and buying nylon thongs made for men cost $20 or more for some reason, and are just too tight. I really like the sheer, soft feel of the nylon. Anyway, just recently I was seized with a desire to get fully decked out in lingerie from head to foot, including a wig, and even to find someone to share this first-time experience with! Frankly, I was amazed how strong this desire was – but yet, while I considered it, I know that I cannot do it, for several reasons – such thinking goes nowhere, leads to a ridiculous & very harmful fantasy – or even homosexuality, though I have never been even slightly attracted to men. It is always about the clothes, nothing else.

    I suppose I feel that like you wrote when I deny myself any clothes at all for a long time, then something occurs and the dam opens as it were, and I want to go just crazy – for just a short time. Then, I am disgusted with myself, overcome with shame, very much doubting my salvation, and frankly wondering how far I might go the next time.
    Do you think I should just allow myself wearing certain items that are sort of half-half to bed, and nothing more? My wife is even willing to make me some underwear that is for men, but with the softer than typical materials…

  66. Terry says:

    I would really appreciate a comment/reply by Thorin, or another moderator…

  67. thorin25 says:

    Terry we’ve responded on the questions page, sorry for the delay – http://healingcd.wordpress.com/questions-requests/

  68. Terry says:

    Thorin – if possible I would like to have a conversation with you sometime, and also to be provided info on how to join the prayer group you have for people caught in the grip of this stuff. For some reason, sometimes I am unable to post to your site…

  69. thorin25 says:

    Hi Terry! I definitely invite you to join our prayer group. Check out this page for instructions. http://healingcd.wordpress.com/email-prayer-chain/ Just simple go that page and leave a comment that you want to sign up, (if you like what you read there about it), and then I’ll send you an email and get you started as part of our prayer group!

    As far as commenting, usually I approve each individual comment because of trollers. Just because your comment does not show up right away, it doesn’t mean it didn’t post. Also, if you are trying to comment using different emails each time, it might not recognize you as the same user that I already allowed to comment.

  70. T w says:

    I’m having trouble leaving a comment again. it keeps saying, “connecting to google…” and then just stays there. BTW I went to the prayer chain part of this site – I saw no instructions on how to add your e-mail or to ‘join’ – but saw a lot of posts where people simply said – ‘add me to the chain.’ so is that how its done?

  71. T w says:

    This is terry – I don’t know what my name is suddenly showing up as T w

  72. thorin25 says:

    No problem Terry, I’ll add you to the prayer group right now, as I received your email address when you commented. You’ll get an email shortly

  73. T w says:

    Never received any e-mail…

  74. thorin25 says:

    Terry check your spam folder maybe. We’ve been sending emails to you at this address – tjw343747@gmail.com

  75. Jonathan says:

    First of all I am a Christian, accepting Christ into my heart when I was younger, believing that Christ died on the cross, buried and after 3 days rose frm grave to defeat sin once and for all. I was raised in strong christian family, attended church when ever the doors were open. I AM A CROSSDRESSER or amost of the articles and the counselor I am seeing, GENDER DYSPHORIC. I have recently admitted to my wife on 34 years that I have been crossdressing for most of my life and most of married life. Of course my wife now distrust me and keeps her distance me. I feel all along in this as well as my wife said she doesn’t know how to handle this and needs to talk to others spouses that have or are going through this situation too. We ars both going to I individual counselors. Her christian counselor basically says I am a sexual deviant and is setting her up to Biblically divorce me. My non-christain counselor, because there are no Christian counselors in the area, is saying why fight it just enjoy being who you are, a woman. I told my counselor that is not acceptable because it is sin and not of God and God is not pleased with this activity. I am troubled with my relationship with God and my wife. Which in turn affects my whole life. Thoughts?

  76. thorin25 says:

    hi Jonathan, thanks for reaching out to me (and the other guys on this site who are fighting this addiction with me). I’m confused, if your wife has found a Christian counselor, how come you couldn’t find one?

    Remember that you only hear what her counselor says from your wife. Perhaps the counselor is pushing for forgiveness and reconciliation and is only holding out divorce as a last resort, but maybe your wife is latching on to that idea already. I don’t know. Just don’t be too quick to judge. I also think divorce could be acceptable in this situation. Crossdressing, in my opinion though plenty of others disagree, is sexual unfaithfulness in marriage, and is grounds for divorce. But like any sexual sin, even adultery, divorce should always be the last resort, and first there needs to be forgiveness and strong long patient attempts at restoring the marriage. It doesn’t sound at all to me like your marriage is to that point yet. So I hope your wife will stick it out longer and help you work at this and the marriage, instead of bailing on you.

    I totally disagree with your non-Christian counselor, but am not surprised at their assessment. Most counselors really don’t know much about crossdressing and have no idea what an all consuming addiction it can become. And as they are not a Christian, of course they would have a different sexual ethic than Christians. And so you know, there are plenty of Christian counselors that would do sessions with you through skype, so you certainly don’t have to limit yourself to this one counselor. On top of that, there are a plethora of organizations that reach out to sexually deviant people like ourselves. Here are some of them – http://healingcd.wordpress.com/important-helpful-links/ Your counselor probably means well, but their naivety is not helping you, in my opinion.

    I want to tell you that there is great hope for you, whether you have crossdressing addiction, or gender dysphoria or a combo of both. Most other places on the internet will disagree with me, but most of them are also not Christians. We worship a powerful God, and he can work healing in our hearts and free us from bondage to things such as these. I encourage you to keep reading my posts to see my thoughts (and other people I’ve linked to) on these issues of crossdressing and gender dysphoria. I’ve written a lot about both. I encourage you to read, and comment and discuss. http://healingcd.wordpress.com/most-important-posts/

    I believe that there is great hope you can give up this life long addiction, and also find contentment in being a man, even if you are not the typical man of our culture’s stereotypes. I believe God can heal your heart and comfort you in the pains you’ve experienced concerning these issues. I believe God can heal your marriage.

    If you decide you want to get help at giving up this addiction and sorting out these feelings, you are welcome to join our prayer group. It’s a bunch of men in your same situation, some of them even lived as women for periods of time. Some are just beginning the fight, and some have not crossdressed in years. We are helping each other and praying for each other. You are welcome to join us. let me know. Praying for you now as well.

    http://healingcd.wordpress.com/email-prayer-chain/

  77. Jonathan says:

    The reason for two different counselors is because I am stationed in another state and only come back every 3 weeks. I do think my marriage is salvageable. I have been looking for a new counselor too. Doing it via the internet maybe a viable option.

  78. Dramaking55 says:

    Jonathan, I also echo everything that Thorin has said to you and I will go even further and tell you to stay away from secular counselors. They are mostly trained to be amoral when it comes to helping their patients. I am speaking from experience as I made that mistake and it almost ruined my life, my marriage and my relationships. They are amoral so as to stay as objective as they can but that is not the advice you need to hear. You know that it is sin and you are aware as to the ramifications of living a life outside of God’s grace. I will pray for the restoration of your marriage and that you would get good godly counsel.

    Blessings
    Andrew

  79. Anthony Mitchell says:

    Please pray for me that I will lose the desire to cross dress!

  80. thorin25 says:

    Anthony, I’m so glad you found this site. I will indeed pray for you that God removes this desire to crossdress. But even if God does not do so, I pray he will give you the desire to resist those temptations anyway. Freedom is found in not giving in to this sin. Don’t expect that it will be easy or that your desires to crossdress will suddenly disappear. I invite you to join our prayer group of likeminded men who can help support you and pray for you in this journey – http://healingcd.wordpress.com/email-prayer-chain/

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