News Article – Transgender Americans take on New York

I read this article in the News today – Transgender Americans take on New York – I found it interesting but also troubling in a few ways.

First of all while reading I thought it was strange that the transsexuals are saying that – “It is the contents of a person’s mind and soul, they say, which determine sex – not what is inside their pants.”    If they really believe that it’s all about what is in a person’s mind and soul, then why are they trying so hard to change what their bodies look like so they appear as biological females or biological males?  If it’s just about having a more feminine soul, why are they dressing like biological women dress?  Why can’t they just be themselves with their unique personality without trying to become women?  I find that pretty strange.   I think it just points to the confusion we as crossdressers and transgender people have about our own desires and feelings with sex/gender.

Transsexuals seem to be pushing for letting anything go with sex and gender.  It doesn’t matter what your biology is at all and it doesn’t matter how you present yourself as a man or a woman or something in between.  Heck, let’s just throw out the 2 sexes in general or make 5 sex options.  Sex should be completely up to the individual.  It’s arbitrary what your body is biologically.  That doesn’t matter at all.  People can be whatever they want.

That’s the kind of stuff they say (at least that seems to be the type of stuff I read), and yet on the other hand, sex matters desperately to them and how they are perceived by others matters desperately to them, so much so that they strain to appear as the opposite sex, or even undergo mutilation surgery to change their sex as much as they can biologically.  These things don’t seem congruent.  Again I think this points to the confusion they experience.

I like some of the people’s comments at the bottom of the article.  They are saying that the birth certificate is a historical record of the historical fact that the baby was born as male or female.  And that is not something that should be changed, even if we allow people to then live as a man or woman officially later on.  If it was changed it would be rewriting history.

I’m also troubled by the woman (used to be a man) in the video.  She doesn’t sound too different from myself.  A man who felt more like a woman but was still attracted to women.  In his mind he was a real woman, but a real lesbian woman, who was born with the wrong body, a male body.  That just sounds so convoluted to me.  How do we come up with this stuff?  Do we believe that to be true?  Would we believe it if one of our children said he is really a duck but was born in the wrong body?  No? Why not?  The logic is exactly the same.   The child could argue he was born with the soul of a duck in the wrong body.    It makes much more sense to believe that we are dealing with a confused man who didn’t realize it is okay to be a sensitive man, a man who doesn’t fit with all the stereotypical notions of what it means to be a man.  How can he be okay with having a penis and yet still feeling like he is a woman?  What does that mean for him? If he was forced to answer, what would he say?  Not that he is attracted to men.  Not that he doesn’t like his penis.  Maybe just that he is more graceful and sensitive and emotional than typical men, or women’s clothes are more comfortable.  But that doesn’t make him a woman!  I’d like to hear one good argument from a transgender person about why they feel like they are truly a woman, that doesn’t include any false gender stereotypes.

I’m not trying to be harsh.  I have compassion for these people, as I’ve had very similar feelings myself and often desired to live as a woman.  But I think they are confused and need help, just like I was confused.  They do not need a sex change.  I’m also troubled by the direction our culture is going.  Someday will I have a son who has to make sure the woman he wants to date or marry is really a woman or is it a man deceiving him?  The people in the article want to make it even easier for people to change their official sex, even without surgery, just by the clothes they wear.  Why not just go back and forth every year for the heck of it?  My thinking is that this would cause so much more confusion and perceived deception in our society.  At least with the surgery, it has somewhat more finality.

I also do not like the psychological distinction between the terms “sex” and “gender.”  I will write a different post about that some other time though.

Feel free to push back at me on any of these points.  Debate and dialogue is healthy.  I can take your criticism.



7 comments on “News Article – Transgender Americans take on New York

  1. Imitations says:

    Hi Thorin,
    You’ve posed many legitimate questions here my friend and I concur with many of the issues you have presented as I expressed in my posting of October 13 2010….”Renaissance – Part Three” which you will find echoing much of what you have written here.

    I, like you, may be uncomfortable when reading articles like this, but I believe my unease is due more to the fact that my own value system conflicts with those of others and so I forget at times what I hold as true for me may not be what is true for others in the struggles they have in understanding themselves.

    In any case, if I may play the devil’s advocate for a moment; I think because you yourself cannot conceive of homosexuality or transsexuals as a probability of human reality, it becomes a dilemma when your attempt at “logic” becomes incapable of finding a reasonable answer.

    Though I think these sexual abnormalities are less than 10% of those born into the world, I do believe they are what they are despite the fact others, like yourself, would deny their existence. But whatever the case may be I think if they exist, or even if “they” believe themselves to exist, we as a society must find a realistic means of co-existing with them.

    Good post nonetheless.


  2. thorin25 says:

    As far as people being what they are and being born as they are, I’m torn on the transgender debate. I tend towards thinking people question their sex only because they don’t fit the norms that they are taught since birth.

    But as far as homosexuality goes, I think there seems to be good biological evidence that people are born with those desires. So I do think they are a probability of human reality in your words. I do not deny their existence. But, as I’ve written elsewhere, this in no way entails that they should give in to their desires. They should resist these desires even though they didn’t choose to have them, just as I should choose to resist my crossdressing desires, just as others should choose to resist pornography or adultery.

    If being born as a transgender individual is a reality, my thinking would go along the same lines. Just because you are born with those feelings, doesn’t entail that you should act on them by changing your sex.


  3. Imitations says:

    “……they don’t fit the “norms” they were taught since birth.”

    Purely hypothetical on my part but I will assume that you believe children are born as empty vessels without instinct, without a conscious or without any knowledge at all and it is only what they taught that validates their sense of humanity?


  4. thorin25 says:

    No. I’m not sure how you got there. Perhaps if you explained why you think I would believe that, that would be more helpful. Of course children are not born empty. They have consciences and instinct. Nature, nurture and personal freewill all contribute to who we are, with God overarching all of those of course.

    My point is that it’s hard to pin down what it means to be male or female, man or woman. And I tend to think that usually if people think they are the opposite sex than what their own body is, it is because they have wrong notions of what it means to be male or female. Like I said, perhaps they think that males are not sensitive and don’t like nurturing and playing with dolls. So if they ARE like that, it must mean they are really a female born in the wrong body. But I think that’s just wrong. That is our culture’s notion of male versus female but it’s just wrong.


  5. Imitations says:

    Okay, let us take a step back……..
    I honestly cannot understand how you can hold such a rigid opinion that allows you to say on the one hand, “I think there seems to be good BIOLOGICAL evidence that people are born with those desires” but on the other hand say; “this in no way entails that they should give in to their desires.” It seems to me that all of your logic is based on religious and social constructivism; and thus the only solution is to correct the instructions learned from birth.
    If you say a child is born with instinct, has an awareness of sorts of who they are and can also say that there is evidence that a child with “those desires” may be a product of biology (out of their control), is it not also possible to say that “some” are born, not with heterosexual desires but with desires for their own sex?

    How is it possible, if God created all things those with “those desires” that they in turn cannot live out the map of life given them as the person they were created to be? I do not normally attempts justify my arguments with biblical verse as it is so open to interruption, but I a recall a hymn that said: “For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb. Psalm 139:13. Allegorical of course, but you get my meaning.

    In any case, your focus evidently was on the word “DESIRE” and not human beings which, given our past conversations on the subject, can only be seen by me as a euphemism for the word sinful or sinfulness. It is quite evident as well that you cannot bring yourself to expand your thoughts in any way to admit that God may have in fact created humans as a homosexual “with” their “desires” as you and I were born “with” our own sexual desires. By focusing on the word “desire” I can only assume you refute their birth humanity as well, for you will allow that some are born biologically and psychologically “different” from the norm yet in being born, your religious values will not allow you to accept that their differences truly ARE differences and not social constructs. I should make it clear, that I do not believe many who call themselves homosexual are in fact true homosexuals, but heterosexual males who live a promiscuous life-style. (Atlanta Centre for Disease Control)

    I have a brother who has lived 36 years in a monogamous relationship with another man. I have always known since he was a very small child, that he was “different.” Even my mother will admit he displayed these differences before he entered school. It didn’t stop him from becoming a highly educated person, nor has he allowed his “desires” to interfere with his relationships with others (who by the way know of his personal relationship) or to be seen as one of the most highly respected people in our society or any other place in the world that he travels. He is “who he is” fully human, gracious and a loving human being by MOST standards. Does he feel he is in the wrong body? Certainly not! Did he only acquire these desires because he “didn’t fit the norms that he was taught since birth? “ Certainly Not!

    I think much of the hang-up (aside from those with literal biblical thought) is that most people have a mental image of homosexuals in the bedroom that blinds their capability is them as human beings which they do not have with heterosexuals. As soon as the word enters their head the immediate thought is of “anal sex” with never a thought about their job, their religious beliefs, their shopping habits their thoughts on politics, their love of mother, father sister or brother, or any other activity that takes up the daily lives of heterosexual people, but one thing and one thing only SEX… Does one even contemplate the same with “normal” people we met or befriend? I don’t think so. Most people I think visualize homosexuals as super sexual males, looking for some place to “put it” (not unlike like I would submit, most heterosexual males, who have affairs, crossdress or have sexual “desires” in their thoughts many moments of the day I should think…..LOL)

    Great talking to you once again Thorin.


  6. thorin25 says:

    Hmm I feel we have covered this ground before, but it’s good to keep trying to make clear what I believe and am trying to say.

    First of all, regarding your last couple paragraphs, I don’t just think of homosexuals in the bedroom, but as real complete people. I know personally a married homosexual couple, another homosexual couple, and various other homosexuals some of whom are struggling Christian homosexuals. And I’ve counseled some in my ministry positions. One homosexual is a great friend of my wife and I and respects us both greatly and has a great time with us even though he knows we think acting out homosexual behavior is wrong. So let me humbly point out that I’m not ignorant of homosexuals as being real people who aren’t sex crazed.

    As to the first part of your comment, maybe you missed this post –
    It is my exact response to your objections. Please read that if you haven’t. I’m not sure if I can explain it beyond that.

    I’d only add here that I believe in total depravity. It’s a fancy Christian term you might have heard before. Part of what it means is that all of us are born with a sinful nature. Yes indeed, God crafted us together in our mother’s wombs. We are fearfully and wonderfully made. We are exquisite creations of God, the crown jewels of his creation. We are made in the image of God. But we are also born into sin, with a sinful nature. We are born with the “natural” tendency to hate God and each other, and without God working in our lives, that is what we do. The Bible speaks very clearly about this, but the Bible also talks about God’s grace in the world and people’s lives so that people aren’t as evil as they would be without God’s working. Total depravity doesn’t mean we are the worst we could possibly be, but means every aspect of our human lives has been touched by the Fall (from Adam and Eve), all aspects stained by sin or brokenness.

    So I’m not singling out homosexuals in any way. You see, you seem to believe we are all born in total goodness, and whatever we think or like or feel is okay as long as it’s true to ourselves. My fundamental Christian belief (not even specifically about homosexuality or crossdressing), is that all of us are born crooked and messed up completely and utterly broken and sinful. ALL of us have thoughts we need to change, feelings that need to be changed by God, and desires that need to be resisted, and passions that we are missing that God needs to create or encourage in us.

    You see, our disagreement is not about homosexuality really at all, but about human nature. Are we born perfect with perfect desires, thoughts, and feelings so that we should just be who we naturally are? Or are we born flawed deeply by sin in need of God’s grace? That is where I think we differ, and we may just have to agree to disagree about that. But that is a fundamental biblical belief of mine that has ramifications for all of these secondary topics like crossdressing and homosexuality.

    If it’s not clear yet, be sure to let me know. This is important stuff, and I’m glad to explain more.


  7. Imitations says:

    “C’est la vie” Enjoy or discussions nonetheless


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