Makeup for Men?

I came across a bunch of articles about some changes in mens fashion.  These are changes that seem a bit feminine to many people in our culture.  The first is about makeup and beauty products for men – “Beauty products for men?”  Read the article and see what you think.   Surprisingly my opinion is that these beauty products for men do not constitute crossdressing.  They are traditionally female type products in our culture, but these are made specifically for men.  And they are being used by men to enhance their masculine appearance, not in any way trying to make themselves look feminine.  Some of you may remember an article I posted about nail polish for men.  That seems much stranger to me because it is men decorating themselves so that their nails appear in the same way that female painted nails appear, and most men find painted nails really attractive and sexy on women.  So men copying that look seemed and still seems really strange to me, but these products don’t seem near as strange.

Now, I would never use any of these products myself, and I do think it’s weird, but again I don’t consider it crossdressing.  One thing I would note though is that I think this shows a downward trend in our culture.   Do we really need all these products?  Do we really need to cake chemicals onto our faces to try to look good?  It seems pretty ridiculous to me.  I think our job as men is to try and help women realize they are beautiful without all their makeup.  And I believe it is really true that they are beautiful without it.  I personally am glad that my wife doesn’t wear any makeup.  And she doesn’t need it, she looks very natural and beautiful without it.  But now it seems, men in our culture are not encouraging women to do without so much makeup, and they are giving into the same practices as well.  Instead of helping women to not be so obsessed about their appearance, men are giving in as well.  I don’t see that as a good thing, although I’m not saying it’s wrong to use those products in general.  I just think it shows a trend of men being more obsessed with appearance than they used to.

A last comment about this article and topic, is that I was surprised to see I was more lenient about men using these products than most of the commenters.  You all know I am vehemently against crossdressing and men not being the men they were made to be.  And yet, if you look at the comments below the article, (and below the other articles I talk about in the next paragraph), there are tons of women who talk about not allowing their men to use such products, or divorcing them if they did, or it would be unmanly for them to do so.  I was under the opinion that our culture is pretty liberal, and pretty open about things like metrosexual or androgynous looks or crossdressing.  But apparently there are a lot of people out there more concerned than I am to keep differences between how males and female dress and look.  Interesting.  Some of those wives sound a little too paranoid and afraid.  Maybe they have a warped view of gender on the opposite end of the spectrum than what I am usually arguing against.  Maybe they need to be a little more accepting of guys that aren’t super manly looking according to traditional stereotypes.  And some of the commenters seemed to equate putting on makeup as part of what it means to be a woman.  I think they need a little deeper view of what it means to be a woman.

There were a couple more articles I found, and a video.   “Male girdle?”  ,   “Mantyhose”   ,  “Pantyhose for men?”   Again with these products, I would not consider them crossdressing.  It would be hard for me to wear the mantyhose without getting turned on, because they are so much like pantyhose.  But for men who don’t have my issues, it makes sense that they might want to wear them for comfort or warmth.  You might be surprised I would think this.  But although I’ve always been against crossdressing, I’ve always also been open to cultural change in the ways that men and women dress.  The point is to keep the distinction between the ways that men and women look, so we aren’t trying to dress and look like the opposite sex.  But change can happen, and in some ways I think it is about time that mens fashion isn’t so stifled.  We should be allowed to wear more diverse things like women can.  Also it is important to note that men are wearing these mantyhose for warmth under jeans or pants, not with a skirt or dress, which would appear womanly, and would be very odd since men in our culture are attracted to womens’ nyloned legs.  Anyway, just some interesting stuff to think about.  I’m not comfortable with any of these changes personally.  In many ways they seem like crossdressing.  But logically I think I need to accept the cultural changes as they slowly come and not view these types of things as crossdressing.

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17 comments on “Makeup for Men?

  1. shoesmaketheman says:

    Men not being men that they were made to be? Give me a break! Every person is different. Men were not “made” to be any particular way. We were not “made” to be the dominant sex. We were not “made” to grunt at the moon, hunt for our food, and knock a pretty young thing on the head and drag her back to the cave to breed.
    Your statement about men being made in a certain way is the reason that the whole crossdressing “issue” is an issue at all.
    If a man wants to slip on some stockings, throw on a pretty dress and feel generally feminine within himself, and even occasionally gain some sexual pleasure from doing so, let him. There is absolutely nothing wrong with it. It certainly isn’t something that needs to be “healed”!
    If that same man starts a relationship and neglects to tell the potential partner of his desires, fetishes and the like before committing to the long term, shame on him. If a man begins indulging that desire after starting a relationship, he has to work out which is more important, then commit to whichever path he chooses. Once again, he doesn’t need to be healed from anything. It’s just a sad product of being taught throughout the generations that the sexes should act/dress/talk a certain way that causes the least offence to the rest of society.
    I’ve stumbled across your blog after seeing the title of makeup for men. After reading this post and random other posts, I have to ask some questions.
    I admit I haven’t read all of your posts so you may have already answered these previously. My problem is I can’t make myself read all your posts because what I have read so far has been generalising in the worst possible way, offensive in what I am sure is the inadvertent judgemental statements you have made, and I have to say, lacking in the most basic of common sense when it comes to your emotional well being.
    Why are you trying to “heal” yourself from crossdressing? I really would like to know.
    Why are you persisting with a marriage that from what I can gather from your latest posts, is close to sexless, unenjoyable, and what seems to me to be loveless? Just to conform to a religious ideal?
    Why is it that some people are so goddamned judgemental on how others want to live their lives? In the majority of cases, nobody is getting hurt, nobody is being forced to follow suit. It’s just a person with individual tastes and desires trying to live their lives as best as they can without being subjected to unwanted judgements, usually based on a religious ideal they don’t subscribe to.
    P.S. The men who want to wear the mantyhose are not wearing them for warmth. They are wearing them because they think it feels good wearing tight nylon over their legs, ass, and nether regions. I know this is a generalisation, but seriously, find me a man who claims they wear them for something as practical as warmth.
    The same goes for makeup. The wearer of makeup doesn’t wear it because they HAVE to, they do so because it makes them feel more attractive, it highlights what they perceive as their most attractive features, and hides the least. It’s basic human nature. We like to look and feel good about ourselves. If makeup helps some of us on our way to doing that, shouldn’t that be embraced? It’s all well and good that you find your wife attractive without makeup, and probably a good thing that she doesn’t like to wear it considering how against it you seem to be. What would you do if she liked to wear it? If she couldn’t leave the house without makeup on? Would you judge her?
    I agree, some women (and men) look great without makeup, but let’s be honest here, some people are just plainly physically unattractive and makeup helps to mask that unattractiveness. Don’t use the old ” beauty is skin deep” or “in the eyes of the beholder” argument, because we all know that in our daily lives, we only get to meet so many people, and that limits our chances for potential mates, hence the need to look as good as we can to present to a finite number of potential suitors.
    Holy crap, I’ve written War & Peace here. I’d love to hear your answers to my genuine questions though.

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  2. thorin25 says:

    Hello. Thank you for commenting. It’s true that I had certain beliefs and judgments, that include judgments that other people are doing things wrong. I don’t think judgments are bad. And you are judging me yourself in your comment.

    I understand that you just came across my blog and it takes tons of time to read all of my posts and figure out what I am all about. That’s one of the tough realities of the blogging world, and it’s kind of a pain for me to have to repeat myself so often. On the one hand, I just want to tell you to read my other blog posts (especially the posts under my most important posts page). But on the other hand, I know it is unrealistic to tell you to read all of them.

    You do not view crossdressing as wrong because it seems harmless to you. I base my beliefs about crossdressing on the Bible, as the Bible is my authority for faith and life. I believe it is God’s Word and truth. But even if I didn’t have the Bible, crossdressing has been a destructive force in my life, (and the lives of many or most crossdressers) and so I would likely have given it up even if the Bible didn’t say it was wrong. This whole blog is about giving up crossdressing and finding healing from it, and as you can see from my email prayer chain page, there are tons of other guys doing the same thing. I am not alone in this. There are many who struggle with it as a harmful sexual or emotional addiction. This is something it would be hard to explain who someone who doesn’t struggle with it, but if you read more of my posts you’ll get a better idea. Just because it seems harmless to you, doesn’t mean that it is harmless. Just as a drug addict might tell a new drug user that even though the drums seem harmless, they are not.

    I disagree with most of the traditional gender stereotypes as it seems you do as well. We are probably on the same page there. I think men and women should remain men and women, as God created them to be. But for the most part, that doesn’t entail acting in a certain way. I’m just saying men should not be trying to appear that they are women, and vice versa. But as far as the ways we act, I think there are very few general differences between men and women that aren’t cultural. I’m not saying men need to hunt, work on car, need to be strong, dominant, bla bla bla. I disagree with most of the traditional stereotypes.

    I love my wife and she loves me. It is not an unenjoyable marriage. It just happens to be a marriage based on unconditional love and service and commitment and friendship, rather than based on attraction and passion. Yes we are conforming to a religious ideal otherwise we would have gotten a divorce early on in marriage when things were really hard. But we are so glad we didn’t. Not only have we obeyed God, but we have remained true to the covenant we made together. We also have grown in our spiritual lives, and in our character and maturity through marriage. Sticking it out has made us better people. It has taught us how to really love, serve, and sacrifice for each other. And now today our marriage is probably one of the best in the world. Not because it’s full of crazy pleasure, but because it is built on trust, sacrifice, and commitment and deep friendship. There is freedom and joy in following God’s commands. It’s not a burden to do so. The world thinks marriage just exists for happiness. I believe marriage exists to draw us closer to God and make us more holy, as well as making us happy. I believe true happiness is found in God. Do you really think all the people getting divorces out there and having superficial marriages are happy? Life is about more than just doing whatever gives us the most pleasure in the moment. I believe in an eternal life to come.

    Why are people judgmental you ask? Some people are relativists and they think however people want to live their lives is just fine. I think that is illogical nonsense. There are standards of right and wrong and they apply to all people. Each person doesn’t get to create their own morality. If that was really true, our society would be in anarchy and chaos. “I don’t think stealing is wrong according to my own personal morality.” What an illogical view.

    I think we get the truth of morality from the Bible, which not only says things like murder and stealing are sinful, but things like crossdressing. So yes I judge crossdressers to be sinning. That doesn’t mean I don’t love them, doesn’t mean I don’t respect them, doesn’t mean I won’t listen to them. And it doesn’t mean I think they should go to jail for it. And it doesn’t mean I’m on a mission to get them to stop. It just means I think what they are doing is sinful. I have made a judgment. But you are just as judgmental as me. You have judged me for what I have said, you have judged me to be annoying and judgmental. You have judged me to be foolish for staying in my marriage, etc. etc. We all make judgments. I’m not mad at you for doing so. I’m only frustrated when people like you think you are less judgmental than me, which is not the case at all. We have to make judgments in order to function and live.

    Hope that clears things up for you a bit, keep reading my other posts.

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  3. Hi again,
    I haven’t actually judged you at all. I asked some genuine questions and put my own view forward as an alternative. I carefully used words like “seemed to be” and ” in my view” in order for you not to be feel judged.
    Regardless, I don’t think we’ll be able to ever agree, or even understand each other’s position, which was apparent already, but confirmed when you using the bible and religion as part of your argument. That’s fine, and I’m not going to start a discussion on beliefs, because with me being a self-idolising, narcissistic heathen, it wouldn’t go well if we tried.
    I will say however, that I am a relativist also, to use your term. While I agree with the idea of letting people live their lives etc, there is a limit. Taking religious obligations and faith based moral compasses out of the argument, we are all bound by a set of rules and moral obligations that are set for us by the society we live in. This ensures that we don’t descend into anarchy and chaos. Before you jump on me with a triumphant A-HA!, I know that most of the societal laws and obligations were originally set using religious and faith based models, but I think you can agree, that we have moved past that and they now stand on their own.
    As I said above, as long as nobody is getting hurt or being forced to follow suit, what people choose to do is their decision. It sounds simplistic, and it is. I’m sure there are grey areas to argue, but the basic laws, social and moral obligations, and rules that we have set as a society (that we live in) protect us from descending into our basic animal natures.
    Sure, I’d love to wipe certain people out of existence when they wrong me, but on the other hand, I don’t want to go to jail for the rest of my life.
    It would sure make my life easier if I just took what I wanted, instead of working for it, but to balance that out, it would make my life harder if my girlfriend was replaced by a 150kg biker in a 6x6ft room that wanted to change my name to Mary.
    All jokes aside, I can honestly say to you that the only thing that has stopped and will continue to stop me from committing crimes of opportunity, passion or enjoyment, is the consequences attached to that crime. Not because I will go to hell, or be ultimately judged by a deity I’m not convinced exists, but because of my obligations to the society I live in, if I want to continue to live in and contribute to that society.
    So let the relativists stay relative, let the creationists stay creative, and let the narcissists stay fabulous.
    Thanks for explaining and answering my questions.
    I’m off to molest my shoes.

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  4. thorin25 says:

    Hello again. For clarification, I was saying I am “not” a relativist. Relativists think truth is relative to each group or person. In that sense it sounds like neither of us are relativists. I think moral truth is not relative, but absolute. Stealing and murder are wrong for everybody, not just a few. Adultery and homosexuality and pornography are wrong for everyone, not just for those who think they are wrong.

    But I would not argue for societies needing to be based on God’s laws in the Bible. I don’t expect non-Christians to live by God’s rules. They will be judged by God for that, but it is not my job to enforce that. I am not trying to make this country into a “Christian nation.” I don’t want to make laws that people have to act in Christian ways. But I do want laws for things that I class as “natural law.” This is a term Christians use to talk about law and morality that all people in the world should be able to agree on, because they make common sense.

    Stealing and murder would go under natural law. Whatever religion or religious beliefs you have, you should be able to hold to those views, and should be able to support a government upholding laws about the views. This is why I don’t care too much whether our country allows gay marriage or not. But I care ALOT about abortion, since it is the murder of individual human lives. The homosexuality issue does not seem to be part of natural law. It’s hard to see how it is harmful to people through our common sense. Abortion however is murder, and we all know that murder is wrong, hence the government should be acting to stop it, and that has nothing to do with forcing biblical values on people.

    This is a long tangent, but just wanted to clarify more about what I believe on that.

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  5. I tried not to, but I can’t help it. I just have to respond.
    Pornography, adultery and homosexuality wrong for everyone?
    Are you purposely trying to offend or keep the argument going?
    It is YOUR view, attached to YOUR religious leanings and beliefs, that all those three practices are “wrong”.
    Let’s start with adultery. For thousands of years, adultery was not even a concept to hundreds of thousands of people around the world. As the world got smaller, western civilisation used religious belief systems to introduce the concept to parts that it was previously unknown to. There are still pockets of societies such as the Mosuo, around the world regularly committing, what is seen by the society we know and love, adultery on a regular and acceptable to them, basis. This makes the concept of adultery a moral truth.
    Pornography. First, define pornography. This is such a general statement, there is no way it could be argued for either case. Is pornography relative in it’s own descriptions? I believe it might be.
    Homosexuality. Once again, a moral truth attached to a religious belief system. There are some faith based teachings that do not cast homosexuality as a mortal sin. There are some who only disapprove of homosexual couplings, and some who openly accept it a being completely acceptable. This is just within the bounds of Christianity. Believe it or not, there are some religious teachings outside of Christianity that would actually encourage homosexuality.
    This alone makes it a moral truth.
    Any belief based on religion is a moral truth by the pure description of it. There are those who don’t believe in either the religious belief system, nor the moral rules and truths attached to that system.
    Here’s a curious thought that just popped into my head. You state that abortion is murder, therefore wrong. Using your own argument, let’s take a look at a developing country. If a child is born into one of a number of societies nowadays, they have a 10-15% chance of dying before they reach adulthood. With that knowledge, is having that child the same as murdering them, albeit slowly? Or is that just put down to natural selection? If it is natural selection, and all part of God’s plan, can we then use that excuse to completely ignore the plight of those children and the societies they live in?
    You don’t need to argue for societies needing to be based upon God’s law, because it is already happening. Our modern, western societies have been born out of a mixture of deep faith based laws and secular laws. Sure, it might not be perfect for all, but we make it work as best as we can.
    You need to have more conviction in your arguments. On one hand, you say that homosexuality is wrong for everyone, as well as adultery and pornography. Then you go on to say that you don’t expect non-Christians to live by God’s rules. You also follow this up by stating you don’t see how homosexuality is hurting anyone through our own common sense. Is it wrong for everyone, or just those that see it as wrong?
    I’m not trying to change your mind on any of this or anything, it’s just that you have put forward an argument that just doesn’t hold up.
    You go on believing what you need and want to believe and I’ll do the same. It’s ALL relative!

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  6. thorin25 says:

    I think you have misunderstood the point of what I said. And maybe I was not clear. Let me try again. But please try to read what I say slower and carefully.

    First of all, I was not making an argument as to “why” those things are wrong. That would take pages and time. I wasn’t trying to convince you that such things were wrong either. If you want to read some of my other posts, perhaps you would see why I think some of those things like homosexuality or pornography are wrong. But again, I wasn’t making any argument about whether those things are right or wrong. I was simply telling you what I believed, not “why” I believe them.

    Secondly, of course I know that not everyone has the same beliefs that I do. Some people may think homosexual relations are good and loving and not morally wrong. I do not. My point is that relativists would say, “it’s okay you think it’s wrong, and I don’t. We can both be right at the same time, because we both have our unique truths. No one should tell each other how to live. Live and let live. What’s true for you is true for you, and what is true for me is true for me.” That is the view of the relativist. Truth is relative to each person. There is no absolute truth.

    I was trying to explain my non-relativist view. I believe in a God who exists. I believe there are some absolute truths about right and wrong. So I was saying, even though people disagree about whether homosexual relations or adultery are right or wrong, ultimately somebody is right and somebody is wrong. Two contradictory truths cannot both be true. Either I am wrong, and homosexuality is not morally wrong, or I am right and it is morally wrong. So my only point was, since I am not a relativist, if I believe it is wrong for me, I also must believe it is wrong for others. It can’t just be wrong for me, but right for somebody else. I don’t believe in a God who is only a God to me, but a God over the universe who is the God of all, whether they realize it or not.

    Of course people have tons of different views about God and about morality! My point is that they cannot all be right. I wasn’t trying to give you a an argument as to why you should believe what I believe. I was only trying to demonstrate that because I actually believe there is truth out there to be known, that I cannot believe without thinking that others should believe it too.

    You may think I am intolerant for looking at what others do and thinking they are doing wrong. Or looking at what others believe and saying they have false beliefs. But true tolerance is about allowing people to exist and hold opinions even when those opinions are different from yours. True tolerance involves respect, kindness, and tolerating other people who have different beliefs. But often today our culture thinks that tolerance means believing that everyone’s own beliefs are true, even when they are contradictory. That is nonsensical. That is what I’m arguing against. I’m arguing for the true idea of old view of tolerance, that I have a right to have an opinion about what is truth. People can disagree with my view of what truth is, sure that is fine. But people should not call me intolerant or judgmental for having a view of truth.

    You said any belief that comes from someone’s religion is necessarily a moral truth, or moral belief. And I fully agree. But what I would say is that some people’s moral beliefs are necessarily wrong, since they can’t all be right when many are contradictory. I’m not sure exactly where you are at based on your post. You can tell me if you want. But perhaps you are actually a relativist who thinks that moral beliefs are only personal, not absolute and are true just to each own person or group who holds to them? And so you would think its okay for different people to hold contradictory moral beliefs? So you think it’s fine that one group believes adultery is good, while another group believes it is bad? To each his own?

    I think about religion and morality in a similar way to science. Scientists might have different contradictory views about a subject, but if so, they both can’t be right. If one scientist believes 2+2 = 4, and one believes 2+2=5, they both can’t be right. One is wrong. Morality and religion is the same way. It makes no logical sense to say that in my religion 2+2=5, and that is true for me even though it’s not true for you. Christianity is either true and God exists or he does not. I am very open to people trying to convince me that my beliefs are wrong. Fine and good. We must all pursue the truth together.

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  7. You’re kidding, right? Your arguments are getting more convoluted and self-contradictory with each post.
    Religion is a BELIEF and FAITH based system. To put it in the same box as science is ridiculous. Until a particular religious deity comes down and stands in front of us all, and proves beyond a reasonable doubt that he/she is who they say they are, it will remain a faith based belief system. Please don’t start the fact vs faith argument. It’s pointless.
    Once again, show some conviction in your arguments. You were quite happy to discuss “absolute” truths such as homosexuality, pornography and adultery being “wrong for everyone, not just for those who think they are wrong”. Now you have been pulled up on it for a real discussion and argument, you state that you weren’t “making an argument about whether those things were right or wrong”. Stand by your beliefs and argue the hell out of them.
    It’s too simplistic saying that two contradictory truths cannot be true. Religion is the master of contradictions, particularly Christianity or Catholicism. I know that’s a generalist view, but it’s also a very widely held one, even by some of those who practise. Religion is a contradictory truth in itself because there are so many versions. Whichever faith you follow is said to be the truth. Judaism, Islam, Christianity, they all have their own versions of the “truth”.
    What are your views on the thought I had regarding children in developing or third world countries? Is not any solution to that particular line of thought contradictory?
    The trouble here id the word truth should really be replaced with the word belief.

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  8. thorin25 says:

    If you want a real debate about homosexuality, pornography, abortion, and adultery and why I think they are wrong, we could indeed have one, but those each are huge topics, and I don’t want to get into that on this post. Like I said, I only mentioned them to explain the illogical nature of relativism. I take the general Christian view on such topics, and you are probably familiar with them already, but there are plenty of websites you can look up if you want more. And as I’ve said, I’ve talked about such topics a fair amount already on this blog, and you can read those too. No point in me repeating myself when you can read those other posts. I’m not going to write up a treatise on why I think each of those is wrong right now. I do stand by my beliefs and “argue the hell out of them” but I like to make my arguments well. Doing so takes time and I do a couple blog posts a week. More than that I do not have time for. Further, the scope of this blog is limited. Although there are many topics I am passionate about, many good questions people ask, and many things I could write about, I simply cannot do it all. There are intelligent Christians out there writing well about other topics. http://www.str.org has some good rational articles about the Christian faith, homosexuality, abortion, and other good topics. I agree with almost all of their stuff. I think if you really want my answers to your questions, you should read some of their articles and see what you think. You might find yourself seeing there are rational reasons to believe in the Christian faith that you didn’t realize. Or you could start with reading some of my other blog posts.

    I don’t believe religion is full of contradictions, at least the Christian faith. I do agree with you that much of it is about “faith” and not having concrete proofs, but I assure you that I believe what I believe not just through faith but because of rational arguments as well. Judaism, Islam, and Christianity all have their own versions of the truth, but clearly they cannot all be true at the same time. So I am not sure what you are trying to get at. Even if we cannot prove which one is true, we still can know that they can’t all be true at once. Which means people of all 3 religions should not be content to have their own private views, but should be trying to convince others of the truth, and in the process be open to hearing views of others in case they are wrong.

    Like with homosexuality, pornography, and adultery, I’m not going to get into a debate with you about God’s sovereignty and the plight of children in the world. I’ll just say I think as Christians we are called to be compassionate and take care of needy children. We should not be ignoring them.

    Feel free to comment on specific posts with specific questions, but I apologize I don’t want to take the time to discuss every aspect or religion and morality that you raise. They are good questions though and I suggest you read the articles from http://www.str.org that echo my own beliefs.

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  9. Vivienne says:

    Hi guys. Wow! More heat than light here, I think.
    I need to make just a couple of points about all of this.
    First, makeup for men is fine. My personal response is: fine if they want to do it. It doesn’t “do it” for me: makeup and other products for men (even though they are similar to those offered to women) don’t press my buttons. As a concrete example, when I want to shave my legs (an infrequent occurrence!) I use shavers and gels marketed for women, even though they seem more or less identical (except for packaging and fragrance) to those I would use on my chin.
    FWIW, I think evolution has fitted us with powerful drives to make ourselves attractive to the opposite sex. For me that explains why both men and women spend a lot of time and money improving our appearance.
    Second, Shoes makes the following powerful points right up front:
    (1) “If a man wants to slip on some stockings, throw on a pretty dress and feel generally feminine within himself, and even occasionally gain some sexual pleasure from doing so, let him. There is absolutely nothing wrong with it. It certainly isn’t something that needs to be “healed”!” (I wholly agree).
    (2) “If that same man starts a relationship and neglects to tell the potential partner of his desires, fetishes and the like before committing to the long term, shame on him.” (I agree very strongly. Shame on me, without a doubt. Not telling my wife before we got married is one of the great regrets of my life. In my defence, I was younger and less wise, and I genuinely thought marriage would cure me).
    (3) “If a man begins indulging that desire after starting a relationship, he has to work out which is more important, then commit to whichever path he chooses. Once again, he doesn’t need to be healed from anything.” (I wholly agree, and that’s where I am stuck. My entire blog is about that situation I find myself in, and I absolutely accept that I am trying to find a way to have my cake and eat it too).
    Thorin, I can’t help wondering some of the same things Shoes does. Your description of your marriage sounds pretty unfulfilling (and I have read a lot of your blog posts). And I can’t help feeling that if crossdressing had really lost its grip on your mind and soul, you wouldn’t have to blog about it all the time. You would just find something else better to do with your time. It really strikes me that you sound like someone who is shouting so loudly that his marriage is happy and that he isn’t a crossdresser, in order to convince no-one so much as himself. If the Bible comforts you and reinforces those convictions, I wish you every success. But there are plenty of people who don’t feel similarly, and I am one of them.
    There follows a long discussion about the Bible and so forth which both of you say you won’t be drawn into, but then do anyway. So I won’t.
    Vivienne.

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  10. thorin25 says:

    Hi Vivienne, first I agree that men and women both like to look attractive, and I actually think that is a good thing. My point is just that the trend in our culture is to overly obsess about it, which I don’t think is a good thing. It’s about good balance. I wouldn’t be legalistic about makeup. I don’t think it’s wrong to wear it.

    I think the issues Shoes raised were caused primarily because it seems he misunderstood this post and therefore took offense to things he shouldn’t have. This post was about makeup for men, not my reasons for why I think we need healing from crossdressing.

    If you and shoes want to argue that crossdressing is not morally wrong, and it is harmless, so be it. I don’t mind. You are entitled to your opinion just as I am to mine. That’s great. And dialogue is good. My stance is different from yours, as you know. I believe that crossdressing is not just fine, and the purpose of this blog is to help those who agree and are trying to rid it from their lives. But even though that is my primary purpose, I don’t mind debating about it with you or others. That can be good.

    I might have gotten to a point to explain my views about why crossdressing is harmful to shoes, but my whole purpose in dialoguing with shoes was not to convince him of my views first but to explain how I was not being judgmental in a negative way. That he, and now you, and me are all making judgments in our posts and comments. Your judgement is that crossdressing is harmless, my judgment is that it is not. Your judgment is that a husband should tell his wife about it, etc. In that sense we are equally judgmental. I was first trying to establish just that fact alone in my dialogue with shoes, and then perhaps move on from there, but I fear he never understood that that was the main point I was trying to make in my responses. I was responding to what he said – “my problem is I can’t make myself read all your posts because what I have read so far has been generalising in the worst possible way, offensive in what I am sure is the inadvertent judgemental statements you have made, and I have to say, lacking in the most basic of common sense when it comes to your emotional well being.”

    I admit that my statements are judgmental, but no more judgmental than yours or his. And then I was trying to explain why if I think something is morally wrong, than necessarily I would think it is morally wrong for others and not just for myself. But I fear he never got that point. You can feel free to correct me if I am wrong though Shoes. You see, shoes said it was offensive and judgmental, probably that I was claiming something is wrong for everyone, but you and he saying that people don’t need healing from crossdressing is to say that I am the one who is wrong, fooling myself, however you want to term it, and so I could find that offensive and judgmental against me. (but the fact is I’m not offended by you at all).

    On other notes – The reason I argue so strongly about my marriage is not to convince myself of anything but to help people realize that the view of marriage in our culture is weak and unsatisfying. Divorces are rampant. Commitment is lacking. Serving and sacrifice for the sake of a spouse is rare. My marriage is really good in many ways, and hard in other ways. But it is what it is, and people seem to wonder why I don’t just quit because of the hard things, but I have a deeper view of marriage than that. Sticking it out not only means I kept my promise to my wife, but also did what God obeyed in Scripture, and surprisingly there have been many positive unexpected benefits because we stuck it out. So in my belief, obeying God even when it is hard turns out to be the best thing we can do.

    You said – “And I can’t help feeling that if crossdressing had really lost its grip on your mind and soul, you wouldn’t have to blog about it all the time. You would just find something else better to do with your time.” I keep up this blog mainly in order to be a different voice than the prevailing crossdressing community. There are hundreds or thousands of men out there looking for help thinking about crossdressing from a Christian perspective, or looking for help to stop crossdressing. I know this because of all the people who have said I am helping them, and from the many search terms that clearly show that that is what people are looking for. (see my post on “we are not alone”). I would not keep blogging about this were I not thinking it was doing any good for others. Trust me, I’d much rather be doing ministry in person or playing video games, or something else more fun than writing blog posts and replying to comments 🙂 Personally, the blog still does something nice for me in that the topics of sex, gender, and sexuality are really interesting to me. And I think it important to keep thinking about the ways that my crossdressing past has affected me in positive and negative ways. If I only stopped the behavior without analyzing the underlying causes and motivations that I had in the first place, then I would be likely to relapse. It’s not good to bury whatever feelings were there. So now, I keep up the blog in an attempt mainly to help others, but also to keep exploring my own inner thoughts about this strange subject.

    Whew, long comment. I hope that clears some things up for both of you. Feel free to dialogue more.

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  11. thorin25 says:

    It’s clear we aren’t making any headway here. For my part if I have misunderstood either of you or what you were asking, I apologize. Or I also apologize if perhaps this whole misunderstanding is on me for not being more clear.

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  12. Ralph says:

    Thorin, you’ve encountered a course of discussion I run into frequently and I have never been sure how to proceed. If we’re going to use God’s law as a reason for doing/not doing certain things, we will never convince someone who doesn’t accept God’s law as real or valid.

    There are some behaviors that are universally agreed, with or without religion, are wrong — murder, stealing, destruction of another person’s property, character assassination, arguably adultery (I say arguably because some (not I!) would insist that if all parties are aware of the situation and approve, i.e. “open marriage”, there is nothing wrong with it).

    Then there are the so-called “victimless” crimes that not even all Christians, or all nonbelievers, can agree are or are not wrong — crossdressing, pornography, drug use, whatever. You can easily point out when these activities are done to excess so they interfere with one’s ability to take care of other responsibilities — provide for your family, drive safely (in the case of drugs and alcohol), whatever. But take a hypothetical person of strong character who handles his or her life responsibly — always at work on time, gives it full attention and effort, picks the kids up from daycare and plays with them and feeds them and puts them to bed, cuddles with his or her spouse… and also spends a couple of hours relaxing by getting drunk and reading pornography.

    Without the anchor of God (“if you look at another woman with lust in your heart, you have committed adultery”) it’s difficult to argue why these things are wrong. The same can be said for homosexuality; if not for those very clear passages in both the OT and NT, I would not care one bit what two men did together. So when someone starts off with “I don’t care about your God or what your imaginary book says he wants”… I really don’t find it beneficial to anyone to continue the discussion.

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  13. thorin25 says:

    Hi Ralph, thanks for the thoughtful comment. I appreciate it. It surely is a difficult issue. I think the place to begin with a person like that is to talk about epistemology, where we find truth. Is it through the scientific method, our feelings, an authoritative book, or all of the above or none of the above? That is the place to begin the discussion. As Christians we accept the truth of the Bible in addition to the truth we gain by studying God’s world through logic and science. For someone to accept the Bible as God’s Word, is not solely something to be done by faith. I think there are also good rational arguments to believe why it is true.

    So I am not opposed to having that discussion and trying to convince others to believe the Bible, but that is outside the scope of this blog. There are other Christians in books, and online, who have argued for that far more persuasively than me, and I don’t need to reinvent the wheel by doing that, nor do I have time to. But like I said in the above comments, I also have other reasons why I think crossdressing is harmful, that are separate from what the Bible says about it, and I’ve written about them in other posts and will continue to.

    I always appreciate your comments Ralph, thanks.

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  14. John says:

    Thorin,

    I was particularly interested in what you noticed about how the women feel about these things for the men in their lives. As has been pointed out on this blog, our society is certainly more open to women becoming more like men in regard to work opportunities, self-sufficiency, and other related things. In my work, there have been many women who have either been gay or quite androgynous in their appearance and they seem to be fairly well accepted by both the men and women at my job. Men who come across as effeminate in my job are less respected-I can tell by the comments I hear made about them by mostly men but women as well. It should be noted that I live in a very liberal area and industry compared to much of the U.S.

    I have often heard women say things like “I never want my boyfriend to be prettier than I am.” I do believe that women get insecure if they believe their man is too attractive to other women. Many years ago when I lived in a more conservative place, I heard 2 women talking about crossdressing (don’t know how the subject came up). One of the women said “If I ever saw my husband dressed like that I’d Kick his ***** and then kick him out of the house. Just today,

    I came across this article: http://yahoo.match.com/cp.aspx?cpp=/cppp/yahoo/article.html&articleid=9125&TrackingID=526103&BannerID=1362560&ER=sessiontimeout. It is advice from women about what they want from men in dates. It could have been written 30 years ago. In fairness to women, I must also point out that the priority men place on women’s looks has not changed either so both genders suffer. Steven Pinker’s “How the Mind Words” sheds some interesting light on men and women and how they view one another regarding sexuality, etc. and not much has changed over centuries.

    I get your point about the makeup and it is simply that our society focuses too much on the external and material and it really hasn’t changed much over the years. Men’s beauty and grooming products have increased a lot in the last several years but still pale in comparison to women’s. Just go to any department store and see. I think more women notice women’s nails than men. I bet you could ask men what color a woman’s fingernails were after she was out of his sight and he couldn’t even remember LOL. I think many women’s products market to women’s status among women, which in turn effects their desirability to men. Anyway, I’m rambling but just thought I’d put in my 2 cents worth.

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  15. thorin25 says:

    John, thanks for the comment. Thinking about women dressing beautiful for other women is interesting. I was thinking about a friend of mine. He doesn’t really like his wife to wear makeup that much. He doesn’t find that it looks real nice on her, and he likes to kiss her, etc. without it getting all over. So she doesn’t really wear makeup. But then when she goes out with other friends, other women, she will wear makeup, whether going shopping, to a movie, out to eat, to a baby shower, whatever.

    This makes me think of a blog post I read recently, which maybe is sort of similar to what we are talking about – http://broadblogs.com/2012/07/02/sex-objects-who-dont-enjoy-sex/
    It’s about women finding only female beauty sexy and not male beauty. Interesting to think about.

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  16. John says:

    Thorin,

    That is a fascinating blog. Have you considered linking to it under “helpful readings”, although it perks my particular area of interest and may not be relevant to what we say here. However, all this stuff relates to the perceptions we have both socially and culturally to attraction, arousal, gender definitions, sex, identity, roles,etc. I bet a lot she has to say and from a women’s perspective could be useful to our own self-understanding and we might be able to contribute some useful food for thought to her blog as well.

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