Crossdressing never satisfies

Crossdressing seems a lot like the rat race of trying to get rich.  Those who are consumed with getting rich keep on trying and trying, but never are happy, and never are satisfied.  They might even gain a lot of money but there is always one more person to compare themselves to who is richer and more powerful.  Or even if they are the richest person in the world, they could imagine having more money in the future.  And so they stay consumed with the desire to be rich.  They are never satisfied.  In fact, they are enslaved to the idol that they have made.  They are serving the idol of money and power, and they become enslaved by it.  It brings them only anxiety, stress, envy, and despair.

Crossdressing is similar.  For many it is an idol, just like the quest to get rich.  (I personally might presume to call crossdressing an idol by default, but I think most of you can agree at least that it easily has the potential to be an idol).

Crossdressers are consumed with trying to be womanly, with trying to be beautiful.  But for those who have made crossdressing an idol, they become enslaved by it, and will not ever be satisfied.  They might feel beautiful but there are always other crossdressers or other biological women who will be more beautiful.  They will never reach what they are striving.  They will keep learning new techniques and new ways to mask their bodies to try to appear as women.  They will take classes, read books, watch online videos, and strive to look like women.  They will strive to speak like women, and act like women.  But still they know that they aren’t really true women.  They will never be truly satisfied.  They might then get a sex change to finally feel like real women.  But again, it never satisfies.  They will want all people to look at them as real women, but many will not.  They will know they are not “real women” and that their new body shape is a result of surgery.  They will never have the real experience of being born a real woman, spirit, mind, body, and soul.

Likewise, crossdressing for pleasure never satisfies.  There is always a thirst for more.   It starts small, perhaps with just female underwear, or just with dresses.  But it grows.  There is always a need to add something more.  We always need something new.  Soon the dress alone isn’t pleasurable.  Soon we need shoes with it.  After some months, we will need makeup with those just to bring some pleasure.  We become enslaved to wanting to go further, to wanting to do more with our crossdressing.  It’s never “enough.”  Soon we are becoming fully dressed and made up.  It’s still not enough.  We look for ways to be adventurous, like going out on the town while dressed.  It’s still not enough.  We consider making permanent changes to our bodies.  We consider flirting with men while dressed up.  It’s never enough.  It never satisfies.  I’ve read forums online of crossdressers discussing this very thing, crossdressers who have given in to every crossdressing desire that they can think of, and they are still not satisfied.  Sadly, instead of considering removing oneself from enslavement to crossdressing, the suggestions crossdressers give are usually new things to try that will be new and exciting (but which will ultimately also not satisfy).

Crossdressing is based on deception, upon what is not real.  What we desire through it is not attainable.  We cannot be the beautiful perfect woman of our imaginings because that is not who we really are.  That is a mirage, an illusion.  To chase it is to enslave ourselves in an endless rat race.

Instead, I suggest giving up the quest to crossdress at all, just as I would suggest someone should give up the quest to get rich.  Crossdressing might be pleasurable in the moment, but it keeps you enslaved, and it never ultimately satisfies.  Ultimate meaning and eternal satisfaction is found in God alone.  And the good pleasures that God created for us in this life only have meaning and give us joy if we are enjoying them as gifts from the giver, in relationship with Him, and while using the gifts in the way he intended.  Let us give up our idols and pointless pursuits and take joy in the God who created us and loves us.

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38 comments on “Crossdressing never satisfies

  1. Jared says:

    “We cannot be the beautiful perfect woman of our imaginings”

    It’s a mistake to think every crossdresser thinks this way. I certainly don’t. I crossdressed not to achieve perfection, I did it because I had the desire to. I ventured out into public numerous times dressed up numerous times because it was something I truly wanted to do, and I felt good doing it.

    “Instead, I suggest giving up the quest to crossdress at all, just as I would suggest someone should give up the quest to get rich.”

    What exactly do you want this world to look like? Do you want every person in the world to be the same? Do you want everyone to have the same religion? I hope not, because that would be the most boring place I could every imagine living.

    You make it seem like the world is such a terrible place nowadays, yet God created this world. So what does that say?

    Don’t you see the beauty here on Earth? Don’t you see how beautiful people are, or do you just view the world as a place full of sin, temptation and evil? Because that’s the sense I get from you.

    God knows everything that is going to happen before it does, yet he let’s it happen anyway. Why do you suppose that is? God gave us free will. If he didn’t want all these “bad” things to happen, he wouldn’t have given us free will to begin with.

    We wouldn’t learn or grow without adversity. We wouldn’t appreciate everything that is so good in this world without some bad. Being a human being is incredibly challenging with the physical limitations that we have. Yet, we are such beautiful creatures and we gain so much by being here.

    God wants us to make mistakes. If we didn’t, we would never learn or grow, and that is why we’re here. And that’s also why God loves us unconditionally and forgives us for all of our mishaps.

    If God hated crossdressing so much, he could stop it in a hearbeat. We know this. But he let’s it continue. Hence, there must be a purpose behind it. There must be a reason why we desire to do it.

    I can tell you that while crossdressing is sexual, there’s more to it for me than that. There is something inside of me that attracted me to women’s clothing to begin with. That has nothing to do with addiction.

    I think we need to think twice about suggesting to anyone that they shouldn’t crossdress, if that’s what they want to do. Pointing out to someone the potential harm in crossdressing is one thing, but each person needs to find their own way and fulfill their destiny in this life, whatever that might be.

    Don’t get me wrong, I’ve been guilty of this as well. I used to try to convince crossdressers that they should stop. But now I realize that it was very shortsighted of me.

    How do you know that crossdressing isn’t designed to teach us lessons and grow spiritually? How do you know that God isn’t using crossdressing as a tool to help a person carry out their purpose? The answer is, we don’t know.

    We all have to really think about how we might be interfering with people’s lives. We all come here to Earth with goals and a mission to carry out. We forget all that once we’re born, but we’re guided throughout our lives so we can accomplish them.

    I don’t know what my mission is, I don’t know what yours is, and I don’t know what anyone else’s is. But I respect each person’s journey in life, and I don’t want to get in the way of that.

    There is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting or achieving abundance. Now, if a person idolizes those riches and puts them above God, then yes, it’s a problem. And certainly, I agree that this becomes harder to achieve when one has riches. It’s easy to focus on God when your poor. I know this firsthand.

    But riches can test a person’s faith and teach them lessons. Much can be learned from being rich, just as much can be learned from being poor. Money can also be used to accomplish a lot of great things in this world.

    I asked a priest one time about being rich. He said “go for it”. His only advice was to keep God above all else. He pointed to scripture about laying all your possessions in front of God.

    May I also add that while some people do intentionally pursue riches, some happen to get this by following their passions and having a great deal of success. Last time I checked, those are both good things. We tend to rewarded in life with abundance when do what we love and do it well.

    Besides, what is the definition of being rich? Is it a million dollars? Ten million dollars? A billion dollars?

    You have your faith for a reason. I’m not here to get in the way of that. I just want you to see the good that the world has to offer, and that crossdressing may not be as bad as you think it is, and that there is likely a purpose behind it that can help us become better people.

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  2. thorin25 says:

    Jared, I want this world to be a place without sin. Wouldn’t that be a great place? That doesn’t mean all of us would be the same. We speak different languages, enjoy different things, look different, play different kinds of music, sports, art, etc. Eat different foods.

    I see tons of beauty on this earth. My posts do not sum up the totality of my beliefs or outlook on life. This site is all about crossdressing. I’m not talking about the things I do every day that I enjoy, or the things and people I see each day that are beautiful. Don’t limit my outlook on life to my views about crossdressing.

    Not sure where you are going with your arguments about God and freewill. If you want to get into the problem of evil, we can. But not sure how it relates to the issues at hand. If you believe we should do whatever we want because God gave us freewill, then murder would be fine too.

    Why would God want us to make mistakes? That’s like saying God wants us to hurt ourselves. Sure, we can grow through our mistakes, (hopefully we do), but they are still mistakes.

    You said – “If God hated crossdressing so much, he could stop it in a hearbeat. We know this. But he let’s it continue. Hence, there must be a purpose behind it. There must be a reason why we desire to do it.” If you substitute “genocide” for crossdressing in your argument, you can see that your argument is not logically valid nor compelling. If you take into account God’s sovereignty, you can say that God has a good purpose for “allowing” it. But it can still be something that he hates. I believe that God allows sin to exist in this world in order to have made human beings have freewill instead of being robots. But our freewill necessitates God allowing sin. But even though he allows sin to take place, it doesn’t mean he enjoys it.

    You said – “but each person needs to find their own way and fulfill their destiny in this life, whatever that might be.” I think trying to figure out our own meanings in life, and finding our own destinies, is a good path to spiritual destruction. We are only fully alive, and living abundant life when we are living with God, and living in the way he wants us to.

    I don’t think crossdressing is the greatest evil in the world, far from it. But I do believe it is morally wrong. And it would be illogical for me to think it can be morally wrong for some people and morally right for others. Obviously there are different types of crossdressing, and I’m focusing on the type of crossdressing that I’ve struggled with. I respect other people. I listen to other people. I love other people. But I can do all of that while still believing that they are wrong, not only in their views, but also in their actions.

    Jared, I can see you are still wavering and struggling. I want to help you if I can. Perhaps we cannot get anywhere talking about the spiritual side of this. You don’t have a consistent basis/source on which you are making your religious claims, and your religious beliefs are continually changing. So instead, what if we focused on the practical elements of crossdressing, and whether it is a helpful or harmful activity. Instead of trying to convince you to keep resisting it by saying it’s sinful, I’ll stop doing that, and we could talk more about other reasons that it is unhelpful. How does that sound?

    As an aside, I do happen to agree with many of your statements you made about being rich as a Christian. I don’t think it is necessarily wrong to be rich as a Christian. It depends on what place “being rich” has in your heart, and whether it has become an idol or not.

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  3. John says:

    Thorin, You make alot more sence than Jared. You are useing the brain God gave you instead of spewing off thoughts of other people.
    My question is why are men the only crossdressers? My wife’s hair is short like a so called man’s. She wears pants just about everyother day. She wears flat shoes I would consider looks like men’s. She wears socks like a man.
    I guess according to Jared she is geting sexual satisfaction from doing so.

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  4. thorin25 says:

    I don’t know why more women aren’t crossdressers. That is something many of us have wondered about a lot. Perhaps it is because men tend to sexualize objects more, and women (and their clothing) tend to be the sexualized objects in our culture. It’s an easy leap from there into crossdressing, in my opinion. We become obsessed with the clothes and the image of beauty and realize we can make ourselves look like it and lust after ourselves in the mirror. Women seem to be less visual in their sexuality, and men aren’t as much sexually objectified in our culture. Perhaps that is a start at understanding that phenomenon but I don’t know. There are a fair number of females struggling with transgenderism though.

    As far as defining crossdressing, it is true that it is fairly difficult for a woman to “crossdress” and get labeled as such. And easy for a man. My friends and I have concluded that this is not fair, not right, and it’s also not fair that men are so limited in their clothing choices. But I accept that as an unfair reality in our culture and leave it there, instead of using that as an excuse to say that it’s okay for men to crossdress.

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  5. Kaitliana26 says:

    I have to admit Thorin that more times than I can count, the “unfair” is something that consumes me more than just about anything. And within the last few days, “the unfairness” has become a lot more constant on my mind… it probably doesn’t help that fact when my brother and my sister-in-law just left from their visit to see me. And today, I was in a hospital entrance earlier today – don’t worry, I’m fine – and I saw SO many women wearing very dressy and professional-looking pants. This just about drove me crazy. I was wanting SO MUCH what I couldn’t have! Women’s black, dress pants drive me out of my mind probably more than anything else, the fact that they’re shaped to their bodies, and that men’s aren’t shaped to their bodies very well, brings on plenty of thoughts and feelings. These are times when I’m at a crossroads, where I have to decide, “am I going to continue to trust God? Or am I going to throw a fit, get envious and run into a full-blown fit or panic because I cannot have what I want” Also what I believe I should have access to at any clothing store for men – in the men’s section – to be able to wear – and I do mean a men’s version.

    I do literally mean that I’m at that crossroads now!

    But as I’ve mentioned in the email prayer chain in the last few messages…. this is something where I need to be asking myself, “Where is this desire coming from? Why is this having such an intense pull on me? How can I take the steps of becoming free to this fantasy, desires, thoughts, feelings, etc? What are you trying to show me God, through this? How can I challenge myself with constructive questions and a goal or two, toward freedom and understanding of this?”

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  6. thorin25 says:

    Exactly, ask yourself those questions, and then stop and think and answer them. Don’t just stay in the questions. Once you understand why you are thinking the way you are, you can change the way you are thinking, think more logically, and choose not to give in to those fantasies or jealousy.

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  7. Kaitliana26 says:

    I gave into those fantasies and jealousies. I have to admit this to someone. I’m lacking any feeling. . . I think I’m trying to bury it or simply deny the fact of what just happened. I first started to notice serious denial right before my brother and sister-in-law left – as I mentioned in the prayer chain. I guess the next question to ask is “why?” Why do I get so scared – or even terror – that I don’t want to face it, so I turn to a state of no feeling of anything (one of the effects of denial).

    But I have a question for you Thorin…. all-the-above that you mentioned about think and answer the questions, and not staying there, and so on. All of that isn’t going to happen over night, right? “finding the answer” behind the question isn’t going to simply or necessarily happen the first time that we truly rely on God for the answer, right? If not, then please, I ask, could you provide more clarification on this?

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  8. thorin25 says:

    Correct, won’t happen overnight. Keep praying, digging into God’s Word, pondering. And in the meantime keep detoxing from cd and cd fantasies. And again, I’m not an expert. And the techniques that worked for me to get rid of crossdressing might not be exactly the same techniques that will work for you.

    What do you think the fear is about? What are you fearing? At what times do you get scared?

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  9. Kaitliana26 says:

    Thank you for asking me – challenging me. But could you be more specific? I would love it if you could provide me with these very same questions in your last paragraph, but centered on something more specific.

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  10. thorin25 says:

    Just didn’t know what fear you are talking about and when you experience it. Was trying to get more information to see if I had any thoughts. Something good to talk to your counselor about though

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  11. Kaitliana26 says:

    I should have made a new paragraph between here: “I gave into those fantasies and jealousies. I have to admit this to someone. I’m lacking any feeling. . . I think I’m trying to bury it or simply deny the fact of what just happened.” AND HERE: ” I first started to notice serious denial right before my brother and sister-in-law left – as I mentioned in the prayer chain. I guess the next question to ask is “why?” Why do I get so scared – or even terror – that I don’t want to face it, so I turn to a state of no feeling of anything (one of the effects of denial).”

    I didn’t realize till you replied back that this was pretty confusing. The first part, I was admitting to “acting out” and the effects after ward. And the second part was a conflicting experience I was having with my brother and sister-in-law.

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  12. thorin25 says:

    I’m sorry, I don’t know what your fear is all about. But I do know that when we have Jesus, we have all we need, and we don’t need to be afraid of anything. He is in control of this world and our very lives, of EVERYTHING. And his plan is good. Maybe your fear is that you don’t think you can do his will, but remember that you have the power of the Holy Spirit helping you. Maybe your fear is that you are afraid to give up your cd pleasure because you want it, but remember that God promises us abundant life in following him. If your fear is fear of the future, remember that God is the one who controls your future and if you are living for him, you don’t have anything to be afraid of. Even death cannot separate you from God’s love.

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  13. Kaitliana26 says:

    . . . to state it for the record, I again, have “acted out”.

    Earlier today though, when I first got to work, I was SO, SO overcome with thoughts of crossdressing/ “being a woman” .. .. I was being attacked big time! During this time, I was convinced that I couldn’t ever give up crossdressing and a life of transgenderism. I was consumed by thoughts of being never free to it – but on a whole new level of “I’ll never be able to give this up”. Rarely, if ever have I been SO attacked with thoughts that were SO enticing, that I was sure I couldn’t give it up!

    The questions that you gave earlier: “What do you think the fear is about? What are you fearing? At what times do you get scared?” These are legitimate questions that I NEED to ask myself. And though I admit that it may be an excuse, for the moment, I’m literally exhausted, and I cannot think right now (one of the effects of after giving into masturbation) it dulls the sense, the ability to rationalize. It brings about severe confusion, insecurity, it intensifies negative feelings. It also intensifies fears, doubts, etc. It’s turns me into an incapacitated person.

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  14. thorin25 says:

    Ah yes, it is a messed up feeling (not to mention the guilt) after acting out. Sometimes it has worked for me just to thank God for his forgiveness, and then go to sleep. Then deal with it more thoroughly afterward. Even if its just a nap, it can do wonders for clearing the mind of the sick thoughts, and helping you to think more clearly.

    You are just beginning this journey of giving up this addiction. Don’t get too discouraged. There are going to be setbacks. You acted out. Confess that to God, think it through with yourself about why you did it, and choose to start over again. You are loved by God and forgiven. Give over to God all of those negative feelings. Let him refresh you. It’s hard to start again, but necessary.

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  15. John says:

    Kaitliana, Why do you think you can’t have a pair of dress slacks?
    It can’t be the cost?

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  16. Michael26 says:

    (“Kaitliana26″) You’re right, it’s not the cost, John. Why, I don’t want to buy a pair of men’s. They don’t make them to fit me. ( I know that I’m probably going down the never-ending road of torment when I say this ) But my body type VERY rarely fits most men’s clothing – and yes, that’s probably a cheesy excuse, because of course I want a female pair. Though, literally, this part is true – whether or not it has any TRUE bearing on my response to your question. I’m a fairly slender and a tall guy (5’11”) ( I don’t know my weight at the moment ) which isn’t really tall. As an example, whenever I buy tops for instance – men’s long sleeve tops – the sleeves are too short, the logical advice would be to buy something in a bigger size. Though that doesn’t work, because then, even if the sleeve length is correct, the overall sizing of the top is too baggy.

    There’s always the “big and tall” section, but when you try to buy something tall, it’s big too, not simply tall, but still average or skinny in the other dimensions. It’s always tall AND big at the same time.

    But getting back to pants, my waist is usually a 30″-32″ and length is usually at least 34″. So if I can find that size, I still have a problem, the pants are usually too baggy and they don’t form to my figure or shape.

    There are “skinny jeans” for men now. But there’s even a few problems with that. One, they make skinny jeans, not “skinny” in any other types of pants. Though, if we focus just on jeans for now. I can usually find “skinny” jeans without too much difficulty. Though I usually have to look at several different types in different locations before I find one that’s decent. Why? Well, I’ve noticed with in the last few years at least, that “low-rise” has become popular thing to put into jeans for men. And this doesn’t work with my shape. When a pair of jeans are “low-rise”, when I try them on, they’ll fit my shape for the most part, except for around my waist. Since they’re “low-rise”, I cannot pull them up far enough up on my waist. When I wear anything, pants, jeans, whatever, I wear them so they’ll ride around navel level, or just an inch below. This is so the pants actually cover my “behind” sufficiently. Also, I do this, so the pants I’m wearing won’t be as baggy looking on me.

    Pretty much all of this applies to dress pants as well. Though, in addition to the problems I have with Jeans, I also have these with dress pants. Dress pants, I still have trouble finding pants that will fit my shape, my height, and still not being baggy. And trying to find ones that have some stretch to them – like spandex for instance is challenging.

    Thank you, John for stepping in to help.

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  17. John says:

    That’s what I’m saying. Who cares if they are sold as a womans. If they fit you and you look nice in them then wear them.
    But in my opinion I bet those long legs look good in a skirt and hose.

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  18. Ralph says:

    At the risk of annoying Thorin with my contrarian point of view, this is exactly the point I have come to in my struggle between crossdressing and Deuteronomy 22:5 — it’s not the fact that it’s women’s or men’s clothes that makes a difference to me, it’s just a matter of dressing for my own comfort. If your motivation is not to deny your God-given gender assignment but simply to dress for comfort, the fact that some fashion designer arbitrarily decreed that “this cut of pants are for men, this is for women” has no bearing at all on D22:5. As it happens, I carry that further – I can’t stand how pants feel on my legs so I find skirts and dresses more comfortable, but I absolutely don’t play mind games with pretending to be a woman.

    Now, Thorin has suggested I’m just looking for ways to justify my lack of motivation to abandon a life of sin and I certainly won’t say he’s wrong — obviously if that’s what I’m doing, I won’t recognize it as such. But I do sincerely believe that “skirts are for women, pants are for men” is a man-made, not a God-made, designation and that’s why I don’t lose a lot of sleep worrying about it. Perhaps if I manage to make a dent in the other mountains of sin in my life — selfishness, covetousness, pride, unbridled anger toward my enemies, etc. etc. etc. — I’ll take a closer look at the fine line I straddle with clothing choices. But for what it’s worth you won’t hear any condemnation from me over your preference for ladies’ slacks if you aren’t also using cosmetics and other artifice (breast forms, wigs) to deliberately appear female, or lying to your wife about it, or using it as a subsitute for healthy sexual release.

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  19. thorin25 says:

    I agree with you more than you think Ralph. I don’t think you are justifying your lack of motivation to abandon a life of sin. Well maybe you are doing that, I don’t know. But I don’t remember saying that. I do think that you are rationalizing wearing skirts by saying that they are just more comfortable. My challenge is that I think there is no way that that can be your exclusive motivation. Such a secretive taboo activity has to have more behind it than that. And whatever it is that IS behind it (besides just the comfort reason), is the thing that needs to be looked at and dealt with, and that could be anything from sexualization of women’s clothing, or wanting to identify with femininity, or feeling like those clothes more suit your personality, etc.

    I also agree that it is a man made designation for men to wear pants, and women skirts. But I also believe that quite a few Biblical passages tell us to respect the cultural designations of gender in a culture. Therefore, even though it is technically arbitrary for men to not wear skirts, in our culture men are not to do so. And slightly more comfortable, is not a good reason to me to break those cultural norms.

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  20. Kaitliana26 says:

    It’s still very difficult for me to continue this fight and to truly see beyond what I have a tremendous amount of trouble seeing clearly, that I must give this up – the CDing and all that triggers me in similar ways. But I must, trying to “simply wear” what I want to wear, doesn’t even simply stop with that! It kills me, it kills others… it ruins me from the inside-out! And even though it kills me that I or anyone else cannot justify why women happen to have clothing with cuts, shapes, sizes, colors, patterns, prints, etc, that they don’t make for me, and that I cannot have or wear… I have to continue to fight! As I was at my churches, “small group”, we were going over two things. One, we went over this: http://www.newcitycatechism.com/q-parent/q17.php and we also went over 1 Peter 1:3-9 . And the 6-8 really are beautiful. They’re a pre-showing of things to come! ( In this you rejoice, though now for a little while; if necessary, you have been grieved by various trials, so that the tested genuineness of your faith – more precious than gold that perishes through it is tested by fire – may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ. )

    And that very same day and night, one of my closest friends that I’ve grown with in my men’s group for men that are sexually broken. . . He picked me up early on the 23rd. We had to do something important for a fellow friend and his family ( which I’m not at liberty to say what ). And after that , my friend asked me if he wanted to drive to my appointment I had for that day… and I agreed. And before we knew it, we made a whole day out of it! And it wasn’t till later in the day that I mentioned that my birthday was the next day – the 24th! So, He didn’t do all of this for me because of my birthday… but because through Christ’s work through him, He’s given his life to serving others! I love the man! He even went to small group with me that night for the first time and met my church family! It meant the word to me!

    But what point I’m trying to make, is that near the end of the day when we were about to part ways, he took me to the trunk of his car. He opened it, and had a bag with a couple of sweaters in it that he wanted me to have. He said, “I saw these while I was out one day, and I was thinking of you.” He knows that I have a horrible time with trying to buy clothing. And He knows the inner turmoil because of how picky I am about what I buy, but also the envy and the contempt over women’s clothing compared to men’s clothing. Plus, it’s a trigger for me to be in a clothing store where I’m sure to find clothing and women that are VERY easy triggers for me!

    He’s known these struggles of mine through our conversing. And though the sweaters weren’t exactly, like “Wow!” … still, they were still something that I try to look for in clothing for something a little more fancy to wear… which he could totally read me and sees that these sweaters were probably something that I could “bear to wear” more than most things in the men’s isle. And secondly, he also took the time to do this… FOR ME!! And He didn’t know it was my birthday!! In that instant, I was able to see a little bit beyond my usual way of perceiving that I “NEED CLOTHING IN EXACTLY THIS WAY”! I could foresee, shall we say, a little of what it meant to give up my fashion-conscious B.S., and simply, look back at him and admire His selflessness!! I could even in that moment even see myself wearing those sweaters, SIMPLY, because HE BOUGHT THEM, FOR ME!

    I have been truly blessed with a friend that’s obviously ~God-given~! I Love this man!! 6 months ago, I don’t think I could say such a thing about ANY man!

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  21. Kaitliana26 says:

    it meant the world to me*

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  22. thorin25 says:

    that’s awesome, praise the Lord for friends like him!

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  23. Michael26 says:

    Yes!! I know!! And to be honest, about 6 months ago, I would not have had such love and admiration for another guy, I swear! But I love this guy!

    I’ve had a disdain for men most of my life, whether friend or foe.

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  24. Tanya says:

    “And the good pleasures that God created for us in this life only have meaning and give us joy if we are enjoying them as gifts from the giver, in relationship with Him, and while using the gifts in the way he intended. Let us give up our idols and pointless pursuits and take joy in the God who created us and loves us.”

    Let me ask you this: how is crossdressing not a gift from the giver? How is suppressing your crossdressing god’s intention? And how does using the gifts only in the way he intended not make you slave to god? What makes you think you know what the real intention of crossdressing is? And how are you so sure to say that it never satisfies?

    Rigid arguments like the ones in this article make the world only worse place to live in.

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  25. thorin25 says:

    In my opinion, that would be like saying that adultery is a gift from the giver. It’s nonsensical, to me anyway. I’ll answer your questions. I’m not suppressing anything. I’m choosing to not crossdress because I think it is perverse and unhealthy. I do believe I am a slave to Christ, and I love being so! I am his servant, he is my God, and being God’s servant is better than being king in this world. I have come to my beliefs about crossdressing through experience, reading many books, and reading countless articles, blogs, and essays about crossdressing online, as well as what God Word says about the nature of sin. Does crossdressing satisfy you? Is it ever enough for you? My point is that, while it might give pleasure, it never brings ultimate satisfaction, you are always left with wanting more.

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  26. Ralph says:

    Thorin, you could say the same thing about pizza: It gives pleasure, but it never brings ultimate satisfaction and I am always left with wanting more. Does that inherently make pizza spiritually unhealthy?

    While we wear this fleshly veil we will have transient desires that can be relieved with transient pleasure. Now whether God has explicitly forbidden certain types of transient pleasure is a whole different issue to deal with (obviously, Jesus spoke out frequently against adultery to continue your example) but the fact that some activity only brings temporary pleasure is really irrelevant to its moral value (or lack thereof).

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  27. Michael26 says:

    Hello, Ralph. I think in response to what Thorin was trying to get across – as well as trying to provide an answer to what you asked Thorin.. . .

    I’m sure that you’re using pizza as a simplified example… but even with something like pizza, that can even turn into over-indulgence for one of many reasons.

    I think basically what it comes down to is one: Idolatry. ANYTHING that we put in place of God or we replace Him with something else. And secondly, as a Christian, we’re called to live COMPLETE & FULLY with all of our beings for Jesus! And that includes letting Him “take the lead” in every situation and circumstance through out our daily lives. Day-by-day. hour-by-hour. moment-by-moment. Second-by-second!

    With in the last few days, God has been showing me that one of the “triggering” things that causes SO much confusion and frustration – and yes, I believe that the effects of crossdressing is certainly one of them – and leads me back into a cycle of confusion and agony is the fact that I have great difficulty trying to accept the “bad” things that happen. I’m referring to any sin or self-perceived “badness” on my part. . . . The point I’m trying to make, is that this has appeared to be a seemingly “small issue” of mine. And that under a lot of circumstances this issue may seem like just “one of those things” that everyone has, and that it’ll never get better, or I’ll never be truly content on a level beyond my personal scope. But this issue, it’s still something that I truly believe God wants me to 1: admit to it. 2: repent of it, but more than merely that. I need to be truly rejoicing in this too! And the two cannot be separate from one another! . . . Anywho, though truly giving this “small” issue over to God and rejoicing in Him taking it and Him being in COMPLETE control of EVERYTHING in my life. . . I was in place in my life where I didn’t care anymore about what was going on in the world that was evil and selfish… I focus completely on ONLY ONE THING: Doing God’s will! And doing through an endless and unquenchable drive – not of my own – to do His will ultimately, love and cherish others, help others in any way healthy for them, hating sin – abhorring it, letting go of my crossdressing, . . . it even wasn’t there anymore!

    Ok… let me put it this simple. One: I was able to abhor sin – while still accepting the fact that I sin and others sin… And two: I was addicted and consumed in Jesus, for His Holy Affection… everything pure, loving, considerate, selfless, nurturing, sustaining . . . etc. All of this not because it’s something that comes so natural to me, but because He enabled me to long for everything with a clean heart! . . . I cannot even begin to really describe it!

    I hope with all sincerity that through my ramblings, that some of what I said made sense to you… I have a tendency to be a bit over-analytical ; )

    Take care….may He truly answer your questions, Ralph!! ❤

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  28. thorin25 says:

    Ralph you have a good point, and it’s true I think. That’s why this post isn’t that powerful in isolation from other thoughts we might have about crossdressing. But I think my point still stands as well. Yes, sometimes we might want to eat pizza and want more. But most of the time I eat pizza I enjoy it, and have a full stomach and am satisfied. Crossdressing by its very strangely (at least for me), makes me want to do it more and more, the more that I give into it. So if I get an urge, but then resist it, I don’t end up wanting it that much. If I give in for 2 minutes, my desire for more goes up a ton. Give in for 1 hour, and I’m wanting to give my whole life to it. Try on one outfit and I can’t handle keeping it on for more than a few minutes before wanting to try another one on, or putting other things on to complete my image. It just keeps on accelerating with me never being content and satisfied.

    Sexual pleasure is often the same way. If my wife and I start cuddling but don’t continue I’m left just wanting a lot more and not satisfied. But the difference is this. In sex, once I get to climax, I’m satisfied, ready to stop, and greatly having enjoyed the experience, feel good about my wife and our relationship afterward, feel close to her, feel relaxed and content, not needing more. With crossdressing, I either am left feeling dirty and messed up and full of guilt, thus not being satisfied, or I still want more after masturbating, and want to somehow crossdress and enjoy it without masturbating, or want to dress as a woman and go out on the town, etc. Thus not being satisfied.

    While your pizza analogy makes some sense actually, and may fit for you or some other people, it’s definitely not the case for me and many others. For many of us crossdressing entices us and promises to satisfy but never actually does.

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  29. toddc says:

    Found your site this morning. Thank you. My struggle is I know what is biblical but to convince the will is different. To make things harder I am alone tonight in a city several hours from my home. The desire to get s bra or skirt fitting is so strong. Not mentally but in the will

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  30. thorin25 says:

    Hi Todd, thanks for the comment. It sounds like you are in a dangerous situation. If you want to get your “will” in line you will have to think carefully and rationally about your options. Do you really want to give in? Think about how you will feel afterward if you do give in. Will those fleeting moments of pleasure be worth it?

    I encourage you to keep reading my posts. I will pray for you right now! Stay strong in the Lord!

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  31. Ralph says:

    Michael, you are quite right — even a “simple” pleasure in eating pizza can be destructive if I indulge in it so much that I neglect my family, my God, my servanthood to others, my own physical health, etc. And Thorin’s followup continues that along those same lines — ANY personal indulgence can become a destructive influence and separate you from God — pizza, golf, crossdressing… even Bible study! No, think about it: Suppose I throw myself into Bible study not out of obedience to God but out of a personal obsession, to the point that I shut my familiy out of my life, neglect the daily communication with God through prayer, turn my back on my neighbor when he or she needs help; my work suffers because I don’t get enough sleep or even skip work entirely… you get the idea. Perhaps I even become proud of myself and contemptuous of others who aren’t as devoted to God’s word as I obviously am.

    Crossdressing is obviously more at risk than those other activities because for many (most) crossdressers, it all too easily opens the door for other sin. Regardless of my position on if and how God cares about my clothing choice, I (or any one of us) am poised on the brink of lying to my family, using the dressing as a replacement for a healthy sex life with my wife, denying the man’s role God gave me in my life, vanity (as we have discussed previously), lust, financial disaster (I’ve known all too many crossdressers who obsess over buying endless supplies of panties, bras, and shoes, and even though I keep myself to a small monthly allowance that money could be better spent than on the occasional dress on ebay).

    So… yes, I do agree that crossdressing is far more hazardous than pizza as an expression of comfort. I was just saying, an activity that only provides fleeting pleasure isn’t *inherently* evil just for that reason.

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  32. Tanya, you are so right. Me being a so called ” crossdresser ” am very satisfied. I think alot of people on here have a deeper problem and seem to think it must be the crossdressing. Thorin. Is it because when you were dressed that you were thinking you’d like to be with a man????

    And Ralph. How many crossdressers do you really Know? I know quite a few and none of them obsess over buying anything and who are you to say what a healthy sex life is?

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  33. thorin25 says:

    Stoknheels it only takes seconds to google crossdressing to see how many crossdressers are obsessed with buying things. The 20 or so guys on our prayer chain who have given up crossdressing would also confirm Ralph’s statement.

    But in the end, if you really do think we are the ones who are messed up, you are welcome to go discuss your views at crossdressers.com or somewhere else. This site is for those who want to give crossdressing up.

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  34. Tanya says:

    stoknheelsJohn: thanks.
    Just to make myself clear: I dont thing CDing is natural, I dont think its really part of who I am but rather I believe its a result of some traumatic experience I dont remember (or something similiar). I believe working on my life, getting to know myself – thats what eventualy can make the desire to go away. Its a pretty hard work really.
    But, until she does go away, theres no point in being unhappy with a thing that doesnt hurt anybody, theres no point in not enjoying your feminine side 🙂

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  35. Thorin, I’m just saying you should not condem crossdressing.
    Its like drinking wine. Some people have a problem with wine. It can wreck families and marriges. I guess crossdressing could too just like wine.
    I don’t think drinking wine is a sin just like crossdressing is not a sin.
    It is what you do with it that could make it sinful.

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  36. Michael26 says:

    Stoknheels. . . I’d like to add to what you mentioned. You mention some people may have a problem with wine. Well, that’s understandable. Because it’s easy for some to become addicted to it – I believe that’s usually the reason why most people that don’t prefer wine – or like to stay away from it – since it has a common addictive quality to it. And then there’s probably a second type of others out there that don’t prefer wine, and that’s probably because they have a legalistic backround where it’s “Just Wrong”, on all counts, without any real proof or effects to show its “potency” for being a truly addictive substance if left unchecked.

    One thing I guess I’m trying to say, is that wine, in itself isn’t “sinful” or wrong. In fact, in of itself it’s quite the opposite of “wrong”! Jesus even mentions how a little wine is good for the body. It helps clean out the system. It’s a detox I guess is a word I could use. Though, when used too much, it “over-detoxifies”. Where it starts to actually IN-toxify! For many, it’s easy for it to turn from simply something that detoxifies in to something that intoxicates – it becomes harmful to us!

    So, still, the wine in of itself isn’t wrong. It has “potential effects” to go from one extreme of occasional drinking of it, to “all-the-way” drinking. So, again, the drinking of wine in itself isn’t wrong. . . it’s the effects of it. And I believe that’s the point that Thorin was trying to share.

    Crossdressing, in of itself isn’t sinful. . . it’s where the heart and the mind take that. . . that’s where it tends to become sinful. . . again, not the object itself (crossdressing), but the effects, through the act of it. Through allowing that to be something that we put in higher priority to other things that should be higher than something like crossdressing.

    You mentioned in your last writing: “I don’t think drinking wine is a sin just like crossdressing is not a sin. It is what you do with it that could make it sinful.” . . . For the most part, I definitely agree with you on this! It’s to the point and accurate I believe! You’re right when you say, that it’s what you do with it, that is what makes it sinful. And that’s right on! That’s the case with just about anything that’s potentially damaging and destructive! Though, the first sentence, you mention wine is basically like crossdressing; that they’re both potentially destructive if handled improperly. Well, I believe, personally, in this case, crossdressing is a little different from wine. (Again, I do believe it’s true when you say they aren’t sinful, it’s what you do with them) And I say I believe it’s a little different, because, wine is something that we drink, just like how we need to be able to drink and eat to survive. But with crossdressing, is that a necessity to live? Or better yet, is wearing clothing a necessity to have and to wear? I’d say yes. But is it a necessity for it to be something that doesn’t belong to us to wear? (referring to choosing women’s clothing over Men’s) Crossdressing isn’t something natural and a necessity to us – men or women!

    I believe that crossdressing is something that SO quickly and very often before we realize it, it’s something that we’re out of control with. Meaning that before any one of us tries crossdressing – even before we try something of the opposite sex for the first time – it’s something that’s already (very often) is already consuming us before we try on that first article of clothing. Because I believe that there’s a deeper matter at hand than, “I really love the fabric.” or ” I love the way that looks on me so much more than a lot of other clothing out there for men”.

    I don’t know it all, but what I do know, is that crossdressing is something – at least I think I can say this for men – it’s hard NOT to turn it into something sexually-driven and compulsively-driven. Since as men, we have such a highly – and very often, out of control – visual way of looking at things & that’s partly where our sexual fantasies SO easily start to become part of the act of crossdressing.

    Well, I hope that clarifies things a little. : )

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  37. Dramaking55 says:

    It really pains me to continue to read of all this justification and rationalization. I love all of you but in my and only my opinion, I don’t think that the very God that created the Heavens and earth would be pleased to hear us debating round and round whether there is a way I should justify any act of dis-obedience. I am not legalistic by any stretch but the original intent of this post was to explore the fact that we get consumed by something that we do and how no matter what we do IT never satisfies us. We have all heard of the “God Shaped Vacumn” in our lives and so we try to fill that vacumn with everything EXCEPT God! Paul speaks of the fact that based on the new covenant of grace we are able to do many things but just because I can doesn’t mean that I should. Drinking, dancing (apologies to my baptist brothers, lol), and even Rock and Roll music may all be permissible but that doesn’t give me the RIGHT to do any of it. IF I am with or near a believer who might be struggling with those things then because I am a child of the Most High I have an obligation to be sensitive to that brother’s needs. This is why Michael’s friend did not take him SHOPPING but brought him the sweaters and what a beautiful act of selflessness that was!
    My only purpose is to glorify God and did I do that while I was out and about while dressed and obsessing over myself? I don’t think so! Did God allow me to cross-dress and come close to destroying my family because of it? God allows all of it but He has given charge of this world to Satan and if HE could make me believe that it was 80% okay when God demands 100% then why not, “Close enough for government work” as the saying goes. With due respect to all of you that have an opposing viewpoint please remember that this site is for the men who are of the firm conviction that we need to be 100% opposed to cross-dressing in any form, that it is a sin, not because of the clothes but because it is idolatry. I am pretty sure that we also understand that we do not serve an 80% God. Are there people who can skirt around the edges of any sin? (pun intended) Absolutely, but if it does not bring glory to God then what does that profit us as believers? This is my “signature sin” if you will, but as I have grown in my recovery I have come to realize that it is only the tip of the iceberg. All of my sins can be boiled down to myself. My self-centeredness, my EGO (Easing God Out), and my pride. Pride is the one sin mentioned more than any other in the bible, (69 times according to the NIV Exhaustive Concordance, higher occurrences than idolatry and murder), and it is because of pride, that I am in this battle called recovery. Perhaps I will find out that this was always to be my path or perhaps it is a path that will lead me to my true calling, but nevertheless it is a journey that I will be on for the rest of my days on earth.
    So, for me it was all-consuming, and it was the thing that I allowed to control me to the point of creating vast wreckage in my life. It is truly a “Pandora’s Box” that I must keep a tight lid on forever. Sin as a whole never satisfies!

    YBIC
    Andrew

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  38. Ralph says:

    Stocknheels: Personally? Just me. I keep my personal habits VERY private. My anecdotal evidence comes purely from blogs, forums, and virtual worlds like Second Life where we can interact anonymously. Given that, those areas are probably self-selected for people who find crossdressing important enough in their lives to make a special point of joining communities to talk about it, so the proportion who obsess over panty collections and the like probably is greater than the wider crossdressing population.

    I didn’t mean to suggest that it’s a problem for ALL crossdressers; I don’t think even Thorin proposes that. I just said it’s an area prone to getting carried away, and {some quantity greater than zero} percent of crossdressers fall into that trap.

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