Question I have for you crossdressers

I have a real question for you crossdressers that I would love a response to.  Please comment below if you are willing.

Those in the crossdressing community love to argue that crossdressing is a harmless hobby, that although the rest of the culture finds it weird, they just need more time to get used to it and see that it actually can be a fun hobby if not done to excess.  Regular people are only turned off to it because they haven’t been exposed to it enough.  It is not a symptom of a confused identity but rather a healthy expression of true identity.  Etc. etc.

Well here is my question.  What would you think about a person, of “white” skin, who secretly made themselves up to look like a “black” or “brown” person (whatever color term you want to use) secretly in the privacy of their home every possible chance they could get?   Don’t you think this would be odd?  Sure it might not be harming anyone, but don’t you think this person might need some psychiatric help?  Don’t you think this might mean the person is having identity issues, not being able to accept themselves for who they really are?

Let me take it further.  Those of you who crossdress and actually go out in public, pretending to be women, and you argue again that it is harmless, and love it when people cannot notice you, well how would you feel about this white person trying to pretend (convincingly) that they are a black person?  Or a black person being out in public trying to convince people they are white?  I would for sure find this person to be odd, and maybe would even be turned off or offended.  At the very least, I would again think that they need some kind of psychiatric help.  Why can’t they be who God created them to be, instead of deceiving us?

Do you feel differently than I?  Do you think the same way about people who would do that as you think about your crossdressing?  Or do you think the two issues are completely different?  If so, how?

Let me take it further.  What if your teenage son was always hiding in the bathroom making himself appear as much like a frog, or falcon, or cat, or hyena, or fish as he could (take your pick of animal)?  What if you found out and asked him why he did it, and he said in seriousness and tears that he was expressing his catness, and that if he didn’t express his catness he would get depressed and he didn’t want to suppress his catness?  Would you tell him to embrace his catness and that it doesn’t matter if the world thinks he is odd, and he can dress up as a cat every day for the rest of his life if he really wants to?  Or would you get him psychiatric help to help him realize and accept that he is a human, and not a cat?

Is this a fair analogy?  If not, why not?

There is nothing wrong with being black or white.  There is nothing wrong with being human.  If people are ashamed to be black, or white, or human, then of course, we want to help them realize they do not need to be ashamed, and they can accept themselves as they are.  Why do we treat sex differently?  If someone is a man but feels like they need to dress like a woman, or even feels like they “are” a woman, why don’t we again try to help them accept themselves as they are instead of encouraging them to continue the masquerade?  Being a man is good and being a woman is good.  But we should be what we were born to be.

Some of you might want to retort, that make-believe is harmless.  Kids do it all the time.  People who play RPG’s also role play.  But there is a difference.  If a kid has to stop pretending he is a fireman, or if you tell someone they have to do homework and so cannot play their favorite RPG for the rest of the year, they don’t go into a depression, they don’t feel like they are suppressing anything, and they don’t feel like they are messing with their identity.

So thoughts?  I’m genuinely interested to hear from those of you crossdressers.  For me this is pretty black and white, and I don’t understand why it’s not clear to everyone.  But obviously it is not.  So help me out here.  How do you differentiate it in your mind?

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19 comments on “Question I have for you crossdressers

  1. stoknheels says:

    You forgot one thing thorin, you didn’t say that in your mind these people are sinning.

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  2. thorin25 says:

    Stoknheels, I’m not sure how my belief that crossdressing is sinful is relevant to the question I posed. Don’t you want to answer the question?

    People like you are quickly turned off people like me because I call something “sinful.” But it might help you to know that I think all of us are sinning every day, most notably in that none of us love God with our whole heart, mind, and soul, and strength. I even am sinning to some extent when I preach because my motives are never 100% pure, there is always pride and wanting to look good lurking back there. We all wrestle with sin every day. I don’t claim to be any less sinful than anybody else, I don’t know what you do or what’s in your heart. I just know that I am sinful, that crossdressing has been one small part of my sins before God, but that I have found forgiveness and grace through Jesus taking the punishment for my sin for me. And for that I am filled with joy and have been experiencing abundant life with my God.

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  3. Ralph says:

    I didn’t respond right away because I wanted to take some time to think about this. It’s also difficult for me to answer how I would respond to extremely unlikely hypothetical situations.

    I believe it would not bother me. If an unrelated friend wanted to experiment with changing skin color or go out in public wearing a cat costume, I would consider that weird in the same way I consider many of my own eccentric behaviors (not all of which have anything to do with crossdressing) weird, and I would follow with interest how people react. But this hypothetical friend with a hypothetical personality quirk would be responsible for his or her own actions and their consequences.

    If my own child had some inexplicable urge to do this — and I’m talking about that irresisitable urge that we all felt when it first started in us, not just some whim we got into our own heads — I think I would allow it at home for a younger child who doesn’t fully understand cause and effect. Certainly wearing the costume would be harmless; I would probably have trouble if he or she wished to crawl around the house on all fours, speak only as a cat, and expect me to speak to and treat them as a real cat.

    For an older child… I actually had that talk with them. I explained that being different can be a blessing and it can be a curse. The more different you are, the less welcome you will be among your peers. Sometimes being different in a way that benefits others — such as the way my son has of turning a tense or boring situation into an enjoyable one with a well-placed joke — can actually increase your status among your peers. But if you are different in a way that makes them uncomfortable because it shatters their view of how the world works… be prepared for a bumpy ride. Suddenly being different can lose friends until you have no one you can count on; it can lead to problems at work if they make excuses to get you fired because they don’t like being around you; it can lead to hospitalization and death if the way you are different actually frightens people. So you have to choose your battles: Is being this different worth that much social rejection? On the one hand, I like my children to be unique, thinking individuals who do not need social acceptance. On the other hand, carrying it to the point that you live and die alone is no fun. So we compromise: Even though I don’t have a problem with the way I dress and see nothing wrong with it, I’m not prepared to fight the lifelong battle it would take to convince others. Other of my less distracting personality quirks I don’t bother to hide (my son didn’t get his clownishness from any stranger!) which I’m sure has been a barrier to certain social circles.

    I seem to be straying from the point I was trying to make, so I’d better stop now before the rambling gets out of hand. The short version is: Yes, if it was truly an uncontrollable urge I would support them but I would also caution them to weigh the benefits of giving in to this urge against the numerous negative consequences.

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  4. Ralph says:

    Had to throw on a postscript after I went back and re-read the original post to see if I missed anything.

    You’ll notice that in my answer I referred several times to an irresistable urge. We all know what that’s like. I always say I didn’t discover crossdressing; it discovered me. If I could find a 100% surefire “cure” that would eliminate the desire permanently without having any other effect on my personality, I would take it to spare myself the countless times I’ve almost been caught, the money I’ve spent on essentially maintaining two wardrobes, the discomfort I’m sure my children felt having to keep daddy’s secret etc.

    That’s the difference between your examples: We *choose* to play tabletop role playing games or wear suits of armor in the SCA and fight pretend battles with rattan swords. We don’t have this overwhelming need to express our inner knight or Orc or Hobbit or whatever.

    Furthermore, being forced to permanently cease some beloved activity that helps me relax and feel fulfilled WOULD likely lead to depression. I’m not that into role playing games (live or tabletop) so I can’t identify with those examples, but what if someone told me that in order to better fit into society and sin less, I could never sing again? I would be devastated. The urge to break out into song would build up higher and higher until I either gave in or I withdrew from the world. I would sooner cut both legs off with a rusty saw than forever stop singing.

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  5. thorin25 says:

    Interesting thoughts Ralph. Thank you for being the first to respond! While I disagree with you, and would not do that with my children, I appreciate your consistency. You seem to recognize and agree with me that those things I’ve raised are similar type things. You would treat them the same way you treat crossdressing, which shows me that you’ve really thought your behavior through and haven’t illogically rationalized it while condemning other things like the examples I’ve raised. I appreciate that.

    However, honestly Ralph, if your child had the irresistible urge to act as a certain animal, and told you about it with tears and trembling, confessing that they had been doing so in secret for years, you wouldn’t take them to get counseling? If not, that’s fine, again that shows you are consistent. I’m just surprised that you wouldn’t I guess. But thanks for the nice comment, and thanks as always for your civility and good dialogue!

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  6. Ralph says:

    I’d be a liar if I said with 100% certainty that I wouldn’t want my child to get counseling, but I certainly would help them try to identify the reason for this behavior and see if there are easier ways to cope. It helps that I don’t have a real great track record with shrinks: I had to see one several years ago for a bout of depression stemming from an unhealthy work environment. It was all because of a hostile manager who verbally abused me (and much of the rest of the staff, to their faces and behind their backs) and yet all he wanted to talk about was my mother. Not impressed.

    Also, it looks like Scott Adams has been reading your blog. (there is no direct link to a datestamped comic, so if you read this after the 27th it will take you to the current comic and you have to backtrack to get to the original)
    http://www.chron.com/entertainment/comics-games/comic/Dilbert/

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  7. stoknheels says:

    I’m just saying Thorin, its fine that you think I’m strange to enjoy crossdressing, but I think it is wrong for you to tell me I am sining.
    It is ok with me that you don’t like crossdressing, and if you are trying to help people that want to stop crossdressing. I have a problem with you stopping it in the name of God. I don’t do it for sex. I don’t do it to masturbate. I do it because it is something I enjoy doing.
    The suprembeing is the only one I feel I need to answer to.

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  8. thorin25 says:

    stoknheels please think this through. There are a few choices for me. 1. Believe that nothing is sinful, and therefore I would never say that anybody else is sinning. 2. Believe that everything is sinful, in which all of us only sin in everything we do. 3. Believe that certain things are sinful and certain things aren’t.

    #1, I don’t believe #1, I do think God exists and therefore I think sin exists, anything that is displeasing to God.
    #2 I don’t believe #2, I do believe there is a right way to live that God takes delight in.
    #3 I do believe #3. I believe I’m not just making it up on my own, but that I’m using logic, God’s Word, the witness of The Church,and my own experience, and have determined that my personal belief, yes its my belief, is that crossdressing is sinful.
    So yes this means I think you are sinning. Sin is not arbitrary depending on the person. It God hates arrogant pride, then he hates in everyone, not just certain people. If God hates crossdressing, he hates it for you and for me. If he doesn’t hate crossdressing, he doesn’t hate it for you, and doesn’t for me. I believe that God does hate it, and therefore I have to believe he hates it for you too. This doesn’t make me bigoted, it’s just a belief. I care about you as a person, but you can care about someone, give them respect and dignity, and still think they are making wrong decisions.

    You don’t answer to me, indeed. I totally agree. That is why I’m not telling anyone what to do. God is your judge, not me. If you think crossdressing is not sinful, then go your way, and we will be at peace, and God will be your judge as he will be mine. We will find out when we die who was right. But don’t expect me to say that crossdressing is sinful for me, but I don’t think it’s sinful for other people. That is illogical and relativistic and doesn’t make sense.

    See what I mean?

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  9. Temptedsinner says:

    OMG everyone…. I think Thorin is BLACK. I’m outa here

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  10. Ralph says:

    Not that I have any reason to believe you know what you’re talking about, Tempted, but what in heaven’s name has that got to do with anything?

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  11. Temptedsinner says:

    Actually that is pretty profound there preacher. I will try and comment before I read what else has been said.

    PS I almost feel like I am coming out of that blasted closet I have been in most of my life.

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  12. thorin25 says:

    Tempted sinner, I am lost. Why did you say you think I am black, and what does it matter if I am? Who is the preacher you are referring to and what were you referring to as profound?

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  13. Temptedsinner says:

    Ok Thorin, Let me take your reply one question at a time. But it was actually meant as a joke. The problem with this type of communication is it is impossible to read someones facial expresions and body language.

    1. I think that you are black.
    2. It doesnt matter one bit to me what color, race denomination that that you or anybody else here is, to be honest.
    3 Preacher + Minister. Man of God. or who helps to spread teh word.
    4>. The question that you posed to us cross dressers & the analogies that you made. Seems pretty black and white.

    I am sorry for the confusion and particularly if I offended you in any way. I have been pondering “your question” all day while cutting the grass and keeping myself occupied. If I didn’t hate writing so much and were not so lousy at it, I could really run with that question. But for now let me just say that it is spot on!

    Thanks & sorry
    Tempted

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  14. thorin25 says:

    Hello tempted sinner. Makes sense now 🙂 No worries. I am not used to really anyone making jokes on here, usually conversations are very serious. More jokes might be nice. But yes, we all have to be careful in how we write, because we can easily offend one another when people cannot see our facial expressions and body language like you said. I was not offended, just more confused. Glad my post was helpful to you! Please don’t let this little confusion stop you from continuing to comment and discuss with us. I like hearing from you!

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  15. Robyn P. says:

    Hi, Thorin! I crossdress and occasionally go out in public. I used to think that crossdressing was harmless. Not any more… There are many reasons for crossdressing. If we looked closely at the behavior, it comes down to that CDs like their image as a woman much better than their image as a man. There has to be at least one reason why this is so backwards.

    You proposed several analogies. I think a better analogy is the similarity to people who are overweight, especially the clinically obese. Is being overweight harmless? For many different reasons, people overeat and those that are overweight are happy with their image or they do not see themselves as overweight but “normal”. But something is causing the overeating and messing with the way the brain sees the person.

    I think there are a lot of parallels between being overweight (or underweight) and crossdressing. Issues with the self-image are at ground zero.

    I’m not sure if I’ve answered your questions…

    That being said, when I was in grammar school, I read a book called “Black Like Me”. It was written by a white man who disguised himself as a black man in order to experience and document first hand racial prejudice and discrimination. When I read it, I thought it was very cool that someone could disguise themselves so much that they could significantly change how people saw him and treated him.

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  16. thorin25 says:

    Hi Robyn, thanks for the comment. The overweight analogy could work. I would hope that we would be loving enough to get our children help if they had an eating disorder of any kind.

    I think I actually read that book, “black like me” it seems so familiar. If I did it’s been years ago now. But there is a difference between someone disguising himself to do research, whether as a black man, or disguising oneself as a woman. There is a huge difference between that and feeling a compulsive need to put on that disguise, to the point that one feels like they are suppressing something and not enjoying life when they do not do it. At that point, something is wrong, and that person, in my opinion, needs psychiatric help.

    Robyn, It’s nice to hear that you don’t think crossdressing is harmless. I assume since you still crossdress, you find it something to be done in moderation, but that potentially can be harmful?

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  17. Robyn P. says:

    Thorin, yes, I still crossdress. For me, personally, it has been harmful to my past and present intimate relationships. Even though there are some relationships where couples have been able to integrate crossdressing successfully, I think that for a number of reasons, crossdressing is either damaging or destructive to intimacy and intimate relationships.

    If I stopped crossdressing tomorrow and got rid of everything, it would not change anything. It is not so much the physical act of putting on a dress. There are too many underlying unresolved issues. I admit that my crossdressing is my coping mechanism…. I am fortunate that I can keep it in control and moderation.

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  18. stoknheels says:

    Robyn, what Thorin site is for, is people that want to stop dressing. I am a crossdresser also And my wife and I are fine with it.

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  19. Dramaking55 says:

    To all of you guys, Robyn, Stokn, Ralph, and Tempted I have been in all of your situations. I think that I looked at cd as a hobby, as a quirk, kink, obsession and finally as the way I was made. I also have been working at recovery since my 40’s and have been thru 4 to 5 12 step programs. I was also forced to out myself to my son and my daughter by my wife when my “hobby” got to be too much. In the end I had to look at it all and be ruthlessly honest with myself and my God and as I was broken and hurting, I realized that this life that I was leading was not the “BEST” that God wanted me to be living. I don’t even think that God cared what I covered my body with as much as where was my Heart? What was my “intention”? In SA we learn that your ‘sobriety” is lost if something excites you to the point of shall we say pre-lubrication? I was guilty of that in spades in fact I couldn’t “perform” unless I was dressed or in my head fantasizing about it. It got to a point where the more I did it the more I wanted to do it. So, my relationship with God was broken, that connection that I had enjoyed was no longer there. My “heart” was away from Him and as I was in essence putting something ahead of Him, then by His nature, He would not hear my prayers or be in communion with me.
    So, ask yourself in your heart of hearts and be ruthlessly honest with yourself; do you get a little rush from cd? Do you get wet? Do you think about cd more than your relationship with God? How about with your wife? Do you have to hide or worry that someone might find out about your “little secret”? Why would you hide if this is such a good and liberating thing? Have you ever fantasized about sex with men while dressed as a woman? Are you hungry for the Scriptures? When you pray, do you feel that you are truly connected?
    I am not condemning any of you, in fact I love you all (though I think I like Ralph best! lol) I feel for everyone I have had the pleasure to talk to on this blog for the last 2 plus years. But think, guys, there is a reason that we are drawn to this blog. I look at this blog as a forum where I can bring things into the light, where I can express my thoughts through the use of my journey. I don’t hate and I wish only the richest blessings for all of you. I would love to discuss these questions with you but if you don’t want to here, I understand, just ask yourself and be honest with yourself. You might even consider journaling about these questions.

    Thanks for all your comments

    Andrew

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