“Transgender Tropes 101”

**12-10-13 edit – I don’t condone the anger and seeming hatred that come out in many of the shared posts.  As Ralph points out in his comment below, they become not so helpful posts after all because of their tone.  Perhaps they were not worthwhile to share because of this.  In the future I shall post articles that not only have logically persuasive arguments, but that are also said in a loving, or at the very least civil way.  I apologize for my poor judgment in this posting. **

A blog I follow had this post – Transgender Tropes 101 – which is actually him sharing what he read from yet another blog which is called by the same name.  He suggests reading the 10 links on that blog, and I must say, I found the arguments helpful.  Again, as I’ve said before, I disagree strongly with much of radical feminism, but on this area of transgenderism we seem to have very much agreement.

I’ve heard the first one a lot, “you should educate yourself on the subject” when dialoguing on the blogs of transgendered individuals.  Of course, many of them have been very civil with me.  But unfortunately, many have said that I’m an ignorant bigot otherwise I would not have dared to ask such questions which they find offensive, and they end the conversation with this.  I confess, that at times I do feel very uneducated on these subjects compared to others.  But then I think about all the books on transgender and crossdressing topics that I’ve read, and countless blogs and articles, and then I wonder – how much do I have to read about this stuff before I’m allowed to talk to others about it and ask questions in debate?  Are there books and articles on this stuff that I haven’t read yet?  Of course there are.  Some are probably really good or important.  But I’ll never be able to read it all.  And I’ve read more than 97-98% of all other Americans on this stuff I’m sure.  I think that qualifies me to speak about it.

The third one is worth commenting on.  Transgendered people say they are subverting gender roles or stereotypes.  But as I’ve always argued, they are actually keeping them going in our culture and giving in to them.  We need to realize we can be real men, or real women, even if we are different than the average man or average woman.  In contrast to some feminist beliefs, I do think the biology of our sex plays a large role in our gender expression, so that most men can be said “to be like this” and most women can be said “to be like this.”  It’s sort of a delicate balance.  There are true biological sex/gender differences.  But each person is still unique and so there is no set grouping of stereotypes that will fit every individual.  So in the end, be a man, or be a woman, and be yourself, knowing that each man doesn’t totally fulfill all the gender stereotypes.  We all fit some and don’t fit others.

The fourth one I’d like to comment on as well – Denying gender “identity” denies our very existence.  A transgendered person is still very much human whether or not I recognize them as the sex they want to be recognized as.  Further, I don’t see why there is so much offense taken when I do not assent to how they want to be recognized.  Being a Christian is THE most important part of my identity.  But if someone thinks I’m not a true Christian, I still know I am, why would that need to offend me?  If a Muslim said I’m not a true worshipper of God, why would that offend me?  I know it’s his belief that is different than my own.  If I disagree with a transsexual about whether they have truly transformed into a woman or that they are still a man, why should that offend them?  Why do I have to pretend that I agree with them?

Number 8 is so important, which talks about how the existence of intersexed people do not in any way truly support the claims of transgendered individuals.  Best line from this one – Plenty of people are born with birth defects. Some are born with no legs, some missing an eye, etc. But no one claims humans are not a bipedal species. No one claims that sight is not a human trait (barring grave disability). The reason we can safely say that hominids are a bipedal species is because -except in case of developmental disorder or amputation injury- humans are born with two legs. Roughly one in 400 humans is born with some sort of congenital anomaly (birth defect). About one in 800 is born with Down Syndrome. About one in 14,000 is born with a disorder of sexual development or “intersex”.

Number 9 is a bit raw and uncomfortable to read.  But the main thesis of it is true.

Advertisements

59 comments on ““Transgender Tropes 101”

  1. A Quiet Voice says:

    “Number 9 is a bit raw and uncomfortable to read. But the main thesis of it is true.”

    Really? How would you know that?

    Like

  2. A Quiet Voice says:

    It is written somewhere that a tree, (or a person),is recognizable by it fruits, (or their words). Perhaps you might take the time to read completely through te comment thread and then possibly(?), reconsider your judgment as to whether or not, “the main thesis of it is true”.

    Like

  3. Wosret says:

    Not to be negative… but usually education changes, and refines our judgments, and conclusions about things. If however education doesn’t change, or isn’t the grounding of our judgments and conclusions, then naturally someone will be unaware of how educated you are when your words do not reflect it. Your words reflect some other grounding instead… You can of course retort that “you’re not educated enough” means that you clearly don’t know enough, because you don’t agree with me! Education, is, after all, a form of indoctrination. Particularly the formalized variety. I would know too, because as I’ve never experienced it, but I read that somewhere, and it sounded true to me, because it allowed me to self-elevate above the formally educated in that respect, being self-taught. Or, and autodidact, to put it fancily.

    As for the identity part, well, it isn’t just a simple rejection, but a systematic rejection of everything I say about myself, and ignoring me to my face. There is not much point of talking on the subject if from the very beginning, and throughout this systematic rejection is obvious. The reason it is a big deal, is because this rejection is a matter of course for most people. They just pyschologize, and think you’re crazy. Think of a movie, or a story when someone knows something, but no one will believe them, and just how desperate they begin to become. Equating it to discussions with muslims isn’t at all the same thing. Think of it more like all of your family, and closest friends denying that you’re a Christian, and calling you something else, and explaining away why you think that as some kind of mental illness. Don’t tell me you wouldn’t care — and that this doesn’t engender a kind of desperation, and need to be recognized, and validity.

    If you deny that, I think you’re like no one I could fathom. It is also funny how as long as you agree with the conclusion it doesn’t matter who says it. If the radfems were defending their on ideas about themselves, and how evil men are, and good it is to be lesbians, you wouldn’t be so quick to agree with them. It is this kind of obvious confirmation bias that is also annoying.

    Like

  4. Wosret says:

    There is also something of an insinuation in the idea that someone gets upset. As was said explicitly on the guest post page. That if someone becomes upset about something that you say about them, becomes offended, then it must be true. “I wouldn’t become offended, and riled up by such a thing…” implying that something is only offensive if it is true, which is flat out ridiculous. Something is offensive because it attacks our identity, or reputation, to act puzzled when someone is upset when their identity, or reputation is called into question is to show a profound lack of understanding about what an insult it.

    My own feeling is that this is a rationalization for being violent towards someone that someone doesn’t respect, or is hateful of. One places the blame on them for being hurt, while at the same time taking their being hurt as a proof of the truth of what you’re saying. So that, the goal would clearly become to hurt them, as this proves your point. All of the while saying “oh, I wish you wouldn’t become upset, why do you do such a thing?”, even showing a hyper detection for someone being insulted, claiming that they are offended when they aren’t,

    Again, not saying not to say what you think, and however you want — just saying to expect to insult people doing so, and that it is irrational to suggest that their being insulted is somehow a demonstrate of the truth of what you’re saying, while you plead with them to not become upset… then you’re just a victimizer.

    Like

  5. Ralph says:

    Wow, that’s somebody with a lot of anger. I agree with many of the things he says, but the way he expresses them detracts from his message — #9 being the most extreme case. Any attempts at being objective and rational go down the drain with a rage-fueled rant like that.

    I also think that he’s missing the train on the problem of the intersexed. Yeah, sure, you could say that from a purely chromosomal point of view anyone with any Y chromosome is male and anyone without is female, end of discussion. Try telling that to the people who grow up being treated as whichever sex their body most resembles on the outside, and/or bearing a mix of both sexes in primary and secondary sexual characteristics.

    In my conversations with those folks I’ve only gotten the tiniest hint of the nightmarish hell they go through every day, and I can’t begin to suggest any solutions. Just saying “Well, if you have a Y chromosome you’re male otherwise you’re female, get over it” is so jaw-droppingly insensitive and cruel, if I were a bystander overhearing such a conversation I don’t know that I could stop myself from punching his lights out — and I’m a pacifist by nature.

    So… from me he only gets four stars out of ten for a mixed bag of truth and hate.

    Like

  6. thorin25 says:

    Lots to respond to here. Thanks for all the comments. I’ll do 1 at a time. Please note that I edited my post, with a new statement at the beginning.

    Like

  7. thorin25 says:

    A Quiet Voice, I don’t want to get into the biology of #9, nor do I want to read all the comments on that page. It’s an uncomfortable graphic topic and I don’t feel a need to delve into it more. Whatever the details are of how vaginas are created for transsexuals, they are not indeed the same thing as a vagina that a real female has. If you disagree, that’s fine. I’m just not interested in delving deeper on that one. Even if they are functionally the same, they didn’t come about the same way, and for me, that is of great importance.

    Like

  8. thorin25 says:

    Wosret, don’t read too much into what I said about identity. Unless someone’s sex is the topic of conversation, I would never go around purposely continuing to call them a man, and offending them needlessly. As far as rejecting the way they identify themselves in ways that really matter practically (like the issues with school lockers rooms for example), I will disagree with them, and there isn’t much we can do to avoid that. It’s best just to be really loving and gentle and work out the practicalities as well as possible knowing that there is disagreement and not pretending the disagreement doesn’t exist.

    Keep in mind, in our past conversation, where I kept referring to you as a man, that was because we were talking about you as an example (maybe we should not have been, I apologize) of what sex means, how we know what sex we are, etc., but I was not trying to rub my view in your face and not trying to attack you.

    Of course I wouldn’t enjoy a Muslim not thinking I’m worshipping the true God. My point is that transsexuals seem to go overboard on the magnitude of the feeling of being offended. You say these are different cases. I don’t think they are at all. Think especially of the Christians who used to be Muslims and their whole families are still Muslim, and all their family members and relatives think they have been brainwashed and say that they aren’t worshipping the true God anymore, even though the new Christian pleads with them to believe that he is worshipping the true God. This new Christian will have to learn to realize they won’t accept what he is saying is true, and deal with it. He will not thrive in life if he constantly tells his Muslim family that he is offended at their disagreement. Obviously if I was in this position, I would care. But unlike the transsexuals, I wouldn’t expect my Muslim family to acede that I am worshipping the true God. To do so, they would have to deny their own fundamental beliefs about who God is. For me to say a transsexual mtf, is a true female, is to deny my own fundamental beliefs about sex, and for a transsexual to expect me to do that is ludicrous.

    Of course I expect transsexuals to get upset when I don’t agree with how they see themselves. But my point is why they take the being upset and the offense to such an extreme level that it seems like they can’t function unless I agree with them, and so they are seem to be trying to force me to agree with them. This is part of the whole debate about laws for transsexuals in our country right now.

    As far as talking to radfems, I have some large disagreements with them that are far more important to me than the things I agree about them with that I have posted. But this is the topic of my blog, not those other issues. If I only read and shared what people said who have the exact same beliefs as my own, that would include 0 people. Do you really think it is wrong for me to recognize truth from a group that I have large disagreements with? Seriously Worset, I don’t even know why you brought that up. I would be a biased idiot if I didn’t recognize bits of truth even from people I generally tend to disagree with.

    Like

  9. thorin25 says:

    Thanks for the comment Ralph. I’ve edited my post thanks to you. I thought about not linking to it at all because of the bad tone, but I guess I thought it was still somewhat helpful at the time. I’m not so sure anymore. Maybe I should just never have shared those posts at all. Hopefully my edited remark is enough.

    Like

  10. Wosret says:

    The difference is that your muslim is a hypothetical, and anything is true in hypothetical land, although I realize that the lives of the transsexuals are in the same place, to you, they aren’t for them. It’s real to them, and not a hypothetical where we can say what things ought to be like, and nothing is of consequence. I hoped I could get you to empathize somewhat with the situation they’re in, but I see that that isn’t going to happen. It is removed from you. You couldn’t even consider it from your perspective (as I suggested), you had to defer it to some imaginary person, in a different situation than you.

    Although… I think it is sufficient to say that about such an arms-length hypothetical, I can’t help but point out that what is expected of the Christian convert is not expected of his Muslim friends and family. He is expected to accept his family’s Muslim beliefs, while also accepting that they reject his Christian beliefs. To bare the brunt of both sides. If he doesn’t do this, doesn’t take all of the responsibility for both his feelings, and those around him, he is at responsible for his own hurt feelings.

    This, as I had already pointed out, to blame the victim. I again must point out that I’m not saying not to disagree, or pretend that there is no disagreement. I’m just saying that sometimes disagreements are offensive, and when they are, we need to own the responsibility for that hurt, and not blame them for being hurt. To not enact double standards, like the muslim hypothetical.

    The bathroom issue is also a highly offensive topic, where it is explicitly suggested that transsexuality is really a rouse to get rapists in disguise into female washrooms, and nice Christian wives are no longer safe, with all of the trans-sexual-predators. Yet more insinuation from you… at the very least. You care so deeply for the safety of women, is all that is on your mind, I’m sure.

    Lastly, we tend to appear to authorities, witnesses, and experts based on their credibility, in general. Their qualification to talk on the subject, and not whether or not they agree with us. So, yet, it is obvious confirmation bias when this is the criteria for quoting someone… their credibility judged by the conclusions they draw, and the standard of truth being agreement with your opinions — and this is why it is an important point to bring up. .

    Some quotes: “The creed of evil has been, since the beginnings of highly industrialized society, not only a precursor of barbarism but a mask of good. The worth of the latter was transferred to the evil that drew to itself all the hatred and resentment of an order which drummed good into its adherents so that it could with impunity be evil.” – THEODOR WIESENGRUND ADORNO

    “I happen to think that the singular evil of our time is prejudice. It is from this evil that all other evils grow and multiply. In almost everything I’ve written there is a thread of this: a man’s seemingly palpable need to dislike someone other than himself.” – ROD SERLING

    “The belief that there is only one truth and that oneself is in possession of it seems to me the deepest root of all evil that is in the world.” MAX BORN

    “What we call evil, it seems to me, is simply ignorance bumping its head in the dark.” – HENRY FORD

    “Those who choose not to empathize enable real monsters, for without ever committing an act of outright evil ourselves we collude with it through our apathy.” – J. K. ROWLING

    “Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from a religious conviction.” -BLAISE PASCAL

    “Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And when you look long into an abyss, the abyss also looks into you.” – FRIEDRICH NIETZSCHE

    I think that our violence towards others is a proxy for violence towards ourselves. We demonize, reject, and project aspects of ourselves that we hate on to others, and attempt them, in proxy of ourselves. We are often crueler to ourselves in our own minds, about perceived mistakes, and wrongs, saying things to ourselves we wouldn’t say to our worst enemies. We lash out at ourselves in this way, when we see those parts of ourselves in others — but we owe to ourselves just as much compassion any anyone else.

    Don’t be cruel to yourself, or you will be cruel to others. Be compassionate to yourself, and you will be compassionate to others.

    Sorry for my self-righteous rant, or if I assume too much. I couldn’t help myself, I see myself in you. I’ve been where you are now, and I don’t know your mind, but I know how cruel I was to myself then. How much I hurt my own feelings. Not to suggest that because I no longer hold that position that I have climbed up a ladder run, and am above you. Changing positions doesn’t necessitate that I’ve changed to a truer, better, or more ethical one. We just have to believe that, in order to change positions at all, or else there would be no reason to. We have to think we’re moving up a ladder, or we wouldn’t move at all.

    I at least feel better now. 😀

    Like

  11. thorin25 says:

    Woah, long comment. Firstly, my Muslim scenario is not hypothetical, it’s the real life experience of many Christians around the world today. No that is not my situation personally, but it doesn’t mean it’s hypothetical, and it doesn’t mean I can’t fathom what it would be like. I really do not understand why you do not think this analogy works. Yes the situation sucks for the Christian in that position, and it sucks for the transsexual, but that is the situation. Should the people in the majority of opinion therefore be compassionate? Absolutely. Should they be forced to change their beliefs? No.

    I never said anything about men raping women in bathrooms, or me being afraid of that. Stop assuming things about me please. I just said that these are practical matters in which we have to make decisions and where the disagreement about what sex a person is, has to be debated. And when practical matters like these don’t arise, we don’t have to go out of way to offend people by saying that they have confused their sex.

    I’m not appealing to this other blog as an authority. Did I say that? No. I think the logical arguments speak for themselves. If I appealed to an authority it would be to the Bible, or some kind of expert on a topic. I wasn’t trying to “appeal to authority” in this case. Again, a false assumption of yours. Is it bias to quote someone that believes the same as I do? I find the logical arguments compelling. That is why I believe them. I don’t think I am any more biased than you or anyone else. Your accusations or complaints along this vein are hollow and pointless. Please think through what you are saying. I quote arguments I find persuasive. You act like I said, “look even this radical feminist agrees with me so I must be right!” How childish that would be, and yet that is not what I have done.

    I’m really not sure what all of your quotes are supposed to mean. Are you trying to disparage me for my religious beliefs? Are you trying to say that I am evil or violent towards people? If not, then what was the point of the quotes?

    I have a hard time seeing how you can claim I am not compassionate. Give me 1 reason. That would be nice. If you are here to make false claims about my character that is not welcome.

    You appear to be looking for things to argue about instead of being constructive. You are welcome to this blog to debate, but only if there is a point to it. You seem to be trying to make arguments where there are none. Sigh. This conversation is wearisome already. Rather than discussing the arguments you are making up things about my beliefs in order to argue. Very tiresome and pointless.

    Like

  12. Wosret says:

    I’ll try to keep it short.

    What’s hypothetical is how someone acts in that situation. Or did you have a specific person in mind, that shows that it was based on real people and events, and not ideas?

    I didn’t suggest that anyone should be forced to change their beliefs. I suggested equal opportunity, and responsibility. That it is unreasonable to expect the muslim to accept the beliefs of those around him, but not for those around him to accept his.

    Excuse me for assuming that of the washroom thing, but that was, and is an explicit accusation made, and has been made directly to my face. Violence was threatened against me under that pretext, and we almost came to blows.

    As for the rest, if you don’t want me to comment anymore, then say so, and I won’t. Look at the hate speech you link to and the lack of compassion the radfems have, and the intentionally hurtful things they say, and the way they say them. I think that you are empathizing, as I said, and you feel the same about your only crossdressing inclinations as you do others, and empathize through that part of yourself. That you wish to be put off those inclinations — that you do not notice the cruelty of the radfems towards transgressive transsexuals, because of the violence you wish towards that part of yourself.

    This hate seems obvious to everyone else that has commented — and although you have the plausible deniability of not having said it yourself, you still agree with it being said. Wish to spread it. Wish it to be heard. You collude with it, and enable it.

    You can claim you have no responsibility, because you haven’t said it, it is merely logical things you agree with… but I don’t find this deniability plausible.

    Again, if you wish me not to comment again, say so… but don’t threaten me.

    Like

  13. thorin25 says:

    No I did not have a specific Christian in mind, just as I did not have a specific transsexual in mind. But I have read enough stories of very specific real people who have been in that situation, in both cases, the Christian, and the transsexual. I’m not sure if your language is unclear, or if I am dense, but I am confused as to what you are suggesting people like me do. You agree that I don’t have to change my views about the true sex of a transsexual. What is it that you think I refuse to do that I should do?

    The hate in the posts – that is why I edited my post, to make clear that I do not at all agree with the tone of the posts I shared. The fact that it was said in a mean way, does not in any way take away from the logic of the posts. In the future though, I have learned from this, and won’t bother to post things, even if I think they are true, unless they are also written in a considerate way. I admit that it was a poor choice. I am not perfect, and I make mistakes. I don’t want to be repeatedly badgered, as I feel you are doing, for making a mistake which I have already rectified and edited.

    For you to say that I lack compassion because the posts I shared lack compassion, well, I’m not sure what to say. That is not a logical deduction. I even share posts that I largely disagree with if they are interesting. The fact that I shared it doesn’t mean I have the same hateful spirit. I share interesting articles I find. If you look at my links page you’ll see that there are even many links that are on this topic that I find interesting, but ultimately disagree with in ways. Some I might disagree with a lot, and some not much at all. As I said, if I only shared things that I fully agreed with, I’d share no interesting articles or links at all. Please stop assuming that I believe everything that the people do who wrote something I shared. And please don’t do that to any other blog author you read either. That is really unhelpful.

    You are welcome to keep commenting on my blog. I don’t see why you view what I said as threatening. I am simply informing you of my rules for this blog, about what kind of talk is okay and what kind of talk is not. So as I said, you are welcome to keep commenting. But in the future, please refrain from making assumptions about me. There is enough to argue about already in this world, we don’t need to make up more to argue about.

    Like

  14. A Quiet Voice says:

    Uhuh…..Tower of Babble anyone?

    Having skimmed the preceding torrent of words, I am reminded of two blind men arguing about whether the color beige or brown is better, or more appropriate, for the carpet in their new home for the blind.

    Honestly! They do not have even the most remotest of clues, and neither do any of you. Even so called “researchers”, like Blanchard, Bailey, Zucker or Lawrence do not have a clue.

    You guys want to pontificate about things about which you know nothing, you are free to do so. I would ask one thing, and one thing only.

    Leave men and women born transsexual out of it, They really honestly have nothing to do with what it is you are all going on about. You are comparing and conflating apples and oranges again and this particular orange, while not offended most certainly finds this entire discourse highly obnoxious and distasteful.

    It is the equivalent of having a bunch of atheists and agnostics going on about our Christian faith.

    I came here to help those who found cross-dressing, and the associated fallout spiritually harmful, find their way home to Christ.

    I have absolutely no interest in these sophomoric, nonsensical, and essentially useless diatribes.

    Bless you all.

    A.QuietVoice

    Like

  15. thorin25 says:

    A Quiet voice, if you don’t like our conversation, or if anything particular on my blog doesn’t interest you, then don’t read those parts 🙂 But Wosret and I are adult enough to end our conversation at the appropriate time on our own. We don’t need you to give us an extra rant about it.

    It may interest you to know that while my blog is primarily about crossdressing, I also talk about transgenderism. There are men in our community and prayer chain who have struggled greatly with wanting to start living as women, and some who did live as women for a time and have went back to living as men. As a community we are trying to help all Christian men live as men, and live for Christ. That means not crossdressing, and not living as women when we are men. So I want you to understand that if you are here, you will hear talk about both of these subjects. If that is going to be difficult for you, I understand, and I don’t wish to attack you or harm you. But that kind of talk will happen on this blog, and if you don’t want to read about it, then this blog is not the place for you.

    I have asked you very nicely several times before not to use unhelpful attacking type language that you used on Wosret. Saying to me, that I “have no clue” about any of these topics and that I know nothing, is very unhelpful and not welcome and a downright stupid thing to say to the author of the blog you are writing on. This is now a warning that if it happens again, I will permanently ban you from being able to post. I’ve only had to do this to 2 trollers in the whole multi-year history of this blog. So I don’t do it lightly.

    Finally, as your brother in Christ, having seen the way you talk on my blog and on crossdreamers, I challenge you to spend some time reading the Gospels over again and looking at the life and actions of Jesus, and meditating on 1 Corinthians 13 about love might be helpful as well. The name calling, sarcastic way you talk to people, and the way you seem to want to continually bug people even when they’ve made clear that you are not wanted (crossdreamers), these are not characteristics that should exhibit the Christian life.

    Like

  16. A Quiet Voice says:

    OK. I understand. However, you need to understand that men wanting to live as women are not the same as women born with a male body. Men, wanting to wear the clothes of a woman, or wanting to act or dream about having sex as a woman are not the same as a woman born with male genitals.

    If the truth be told, I freely admit that I have no clue what that must be like. I can also tell you that in that five or so years that I have taken an interest in this topic, I have met three (as in 3), women and one man who would fit my definition of trans-sexed. It is not a common condition. My uneducated guess would be that people like me are about as common as two-headed frogs.

    So perhaps you might follow your own advice and consider the beam in your own eye,

    Like

  17. Wosret says:

    Then it was a hypothetical. I was relating my own experiences, and attempting to empathize with those I see in the same, or similar situations, as best I can.

    I don’t think anyone should be “forced”, or “made” to change their views, but I would like them to, and be persuaded because I’m right, and of their own free will, and volition — because they value what is right, and just. I don’t want to make anyone do anything, but I do want them to come to see things not “my way”, but the way I think is the right, and just way.

    You have no responsibility, I see, add the disclaimer, and you’re good. Spread hateful words, but it is the ultimate message, and not the tone, or hate that you agree with — just the impeccable logic.

    A deduction is either necessary, or a contradiction… I wish you’d stop talking about logic, when you don’t know what it is.

    “For you to say that I lack compassion because the posts I shared lack compassion…”

    Even if everything you did, said, and all of the properties lacked compassion, that wouldn’t mean that you would — not necessarily, as properties do not necessarily exhaust, or constitute identity. Know as the indiscernibility of identicals.

    Thing is, that deduction is just how to make sense when you talk, it doesn’t dictate the way the world is, facts are logically contingent. Deduction is about what is either necessary, or impossible — everything in between is not subject to deduction. If you haven’t, should give Aristotle’s rhetoric a read. Point being, that even though I never even said anything like the quoted bit (which really matters when you use different words for deduction, because it comes down to the interplay of words, because deduction is either tautological, or true because of the ways the words themselves are defined, or contradictory, for the same reason), this issue is factual, and not deductive — although it isn’t a tautology that if you post things that lack compassion, that you must lack compassion, it isn’t impossible either — that means it falls in the middle, and I argue for why I think it is the case that you do condone that lack of compassion, by posting it. Why spreading it around is itself implicates you by enabling, and colluding.

    I think I am done here though… because you seem to trumpet pre-concieved conclusions, and hate speech as super logical, while being unaware of how to even use logic. This is like the third time I had to point this misapplication out to you as well (which isn’t my opinion, but is not controversial), and it just fell on deaf ears.

    Enjoy your ultra logical hate speech.

    Like

  18. A Quiet Voice says:

    PS. What “attack language” were you referring to?

    Like

  19. thorin25 says:

    So sorry Ralph, in the midst of all the rest of the debate here, I didn’t respond to your thoughtful actual analysis of the arguments. I see the dilemma you are talking about for intersexuals. What do you make of this sentence from that blog post? “So even the tiny minority of people born with a birth defect of sex can be “sexed”.”

    Do you think that they cannot be sexed in those cases, or in some cases? I’m definitely not an expert about all the different intersexual conditions, I know there are many. But I had thought that from the things I’ve read before, it is still very possible in almost all cases to figure out the real sex of the person, even though their body might have the various abnormalities and ambiguities.

    The blog post from transgender tropes doesn’t seem very compassionate to intersexed individuals. But I think that is not the point of the post, they aren’t talking about how to help those people. The point is that the existence of intersexed people doesn’t give validity to transgender arguments.

    A while back, did you read this post of mine, and watch the corresponding video? https://healingcd.wordpress.com/2012/10/18/video-being-transgender-is-not-the-same-as-intersex/

    Like

  20. Wosret says:

    AQV, I certainly don’t consider myself a man, wanting to be a woman, or a man wanting to live as a woman — and when such language is meant to describe me, I either see it as intentionally inflammatory, or just not coherently speaking.

    I don’t have a definition the word has to fit into through — my incantations aren’t that potent, I don’t get to talk things in and out of existence. I try to have my definitions reflect the world.

    Like

  21. thorin25 says:

    A Quiet Voice, “However, you need to understand that men wanting to live as women are not the same as women born with a male body”. I disagree. I don’t think it is possible for women to be born with a male body. I think that sentence is actually nonsensical. By very definition a woman has a woman’s body. This is a disagreement we have. But please understand that is the perspective of this site. So don’t expect me to talk differently about it.

    Attacking language is calling people names, saying people no nothing, talking sarcastically, telling people over and over that they have hubris, are full of pride, etc. See this post and yours and my comments – https://healingcd.wordpress.com/2013/06/01/guest-post-what-would-god-say/

    Like

  22. Wosret says:

    Actually (although I wouldn’t word it as “women born with male bodies”, for sheer clarity’s sake, and don’t myself believe that), it isn’t nonsensical either, unless the two things are mutually exclusive (being male, and female, but both the words “hermaphrodite”, and “androgyny” clearly disagree…), or the female body constituted the female identity, properties don’t constitute or exhaust identity (at least not logically, but perhaps factually they do, but we’d need evidence for that, and not logic).

    Still posting though, even though I said I wouldn’t… was supposed to storm off in a huff… still planning on it…

    Like

  23. thorin25 says:

    What I mean by logic – http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/logic?s=t
    In this case I meant, quotes from the definition –
    “convincing forcefulness; inexorable truth or persuasiveness: the irresistible logic of the facts.”

    I think the arguments at that site were mostly logical, in that they were persuasive to me and made sense.

    It might have made sense for you to assume at first, that because I shared the post that I agreed with the hate at that site. But that is still a stretch because you know from talking to me that I don’t talk like that. But especially after I edited my post and claimed that I do not condone such speech, I believe it does not make sense for you to still think that I agree with it.

    If you really think I’m not logical and that I’m full of hate, I guess nothing else I say will convince you.

    Like

  24. Wosret says:

    And, last thing about the definition of female, which is the sex that has ovaries, and produces eggs — so by this strict definition, once a female goes through menopause they aren’t female anymore, or my female cat or dog after being spaded cease to be female — by this definition. We all know this to be ridiculous, so we don’t think this definition is exhaustive.

    We would usually say that all things being equal, if they were healthy, young, and of firm body, in a more ideal form, they would do that. They would have ovaries, and produce eggs — so why can’t this be said of transsexuals. Or, even if you say that females that go through menopause once did, or spaded cats and dogs once did (still not adhering to the strict definition), there are still females born infertile, that don’t produce eggs. Are they not female?

    It isn’t a definition that makes you deny the identities of transsexuals, it has to be something else. Some kind of other essentialism, that you can’t quite point that, and isn’t constituted by their properties. Something core, and fundamental that you deny to transsexuals, or, rather, dictate to them.

    Like

  25. A Quiet Voice says:

    And here I thought I had redeemed myself. Silly me. I thought that we had agreed to disagree and agree that while our perspectives are different, our ultimate goal is the same.

    Let me try this from a different, albeit hypothetical perspective. If you were an accomplished eye surgeon, and I were a gourmet cook, would you come into my kitchen and instruct me on how to make a particular sauce? Would you not be, even to the slightest degree, affronted if I came into your OR and tried to “teach’ you how to operate?

    This is what I am talking about. By your own admission in your response to Ralph, you acknowledge that you know very little about inter-sexed conditions. Is it not possible that while you might be well versed in the transgendered phenomenon, you are conflating it with a totally distinct condition?

    I am speaking to you sincerely and I honestly have no ax to grind, but you are in error in your beliefs. I am living and breathing proof of that.
    Transsexual people do exist, and we are not an affront to God or Nature. Nor have we any relationship to cross-dressers, gender benders, gender queers or trans-genders.

    @ Worset. I wasn’t referring to you. I have absolutely no clue who or what you are, or how you “identify”.

    Like

  26. Wosret says:

    Yes, the use of the word “logic” is nebulous until you explicate a system, but once you said “deduction”, you did that, and that is what I was all over. Not you use of “logic”, which I only mocked as nebulous, but your use of “deduction”, which adds some meat to chew on.

    I said that you probably wouldn’t say those things yourself, but you can’t object to them being said all that much when you promote them. This is what plausible deniability is, which is just a way to eschew responsibility.

    Like

  27. thorin25 says:

    Wosret do you really want to have this conversation? It’s an important topic. I will do so if you want to, but I thought you had enough of me. I’d rather have you respond to other stuff I’ve already raised before delving into new territory.

    What I am saying I guess is either leave or don’t. If you want to stay and discuss, let’s do so. But I’m not going to start a huge conversation that you might be leaving in the middle of.

    Like

  28. thorin25 says:

    Sorry we posted about at the same time. Like I said, I post all kinds of things on my site. Now that you know this, please understand for future posts that I don’t condone everything said in everything I share. I am not eschewing responsibility. If you want to believe I am, you can I guess, but seems odd to think that I believe something directly contrary to what I have blatantly written.

    About my word “deduction” I assent I used it incorrectly if we are talking about the rules of formal logic. However, I don’t see why you made an issue out of it, as you knew what I meant. I meant “deduction” as conclusion.

    Like

  29. thorin25 says:

    A quiet voice, I said I’m not an expert on intersexual conditions, I didn’t say I know very little. And knowing little about intersexual biological conditions doesn’t mean I know little about transgendered phenomena. My actual point was that they are two distinct things as you say.

    You said – “I am speaking to you sincerely and I honestly have no ax to grind, but you are in error in your beliefs. I am living and breathing proof of that.
    Transsexual people do exist, and we are not an affront to God or Nature. Nor have we any relationship to cross-dressers, gender benders, gender queers or trans-genders.”

    The problem is that I do not believe I am in error, but that you are. Of course I believe transsexuals exist, but I believe they are men who have altered their bodies, and you believe (I think) that they are actually women. As I’ve told you before, I also think that they do have relationship to crossdressers and trans-gender as you call them. I think there is some overlap even though the conditions are distinct. I know you disagree. We’ve been there, discussed that.

    You say you are living breathing proof that transsexuals exist. I don’t see what reasoning you are using for that statement, or what you mean. Your existence could just as well prove my point of view.

    Our goal is indeed the same, for people to find fullness and joy in Christ. But part of my belief for how to do that is partly, to give up crossdressing, and also to live as the sex we were created and born as.

    Like

  30. A Quiet Voice says:

    A while back, in our initial conversations, I said this….
    “Have I come to some conclusions about “these issues of transgenderism and transsexualism? Yes. I see both terms as relatively recent, and reasonably accurate, constructions from Latin roots to describe two obviously distinct conditions.

    Briefly trans-gender means simply to change, or more accurately ‘cross over’ gender, a social construct describing the different behaviors/roles/dress styles etc.

    Conversely trans-sexualism refers to changing or crossing over from one morphological sex to the other.

    Is changing sex a moral, thing to do or is it immoral, or maybe even amoral? I really can’t answer that in a general sense. I really am a pretty simple old woman and the way I see it, “If it works, don’t fix”. “If your eye offends thee or thy God, pluck it out”.

    To which you responded thusly: “Thanks! I don’t see the difference yet though in your explanations between transgender and trans-sexualism. Can you further explain this quote?

    “Conversely trans-sexualism refers to changing or crossing over from one morphological sex to the other.”

    I don’t understand what this means. Needs a little unpacking 🙂 ”

    I answered you with this simple question to which you never responded and as a result you remained safe in your self imposed ignorance.
    Please UNDERSTAND!!! “Ignorance” = “Lack of knowledge”. No disparagement intended!

    Like

  31. A Quiet Voice says:

    con’d. from above…

    How do you understand the difference between sex and gender? Do you see them as different, or the same?

    Sorry

    Like

  32. thorin25 says:

    I’m confused. I remember the conversation, and looked at it again on my welcome page. Our conversation did not end there. We then discussed what morphological means. And I don’t see any question that you asked that I didn’t respond to. What was the question?

    Like

  33. thorin25 says:

    From my welcome page – Quiet Voice, I agree on some level with the modern differentiation between sex and gender. I understand the definitions, that sex refers to biological male or femaleness, and that gender is an expression of your sex, which differs from individual to individual. What I chafe at is how these things are understood. Radical feminists and others have wrongly argued that our biological sex doesn’t determine our behavior at all. They are wrong. Study after study after study shows that there are real differences between males and females, which means that gender connects to sex. You can’t just divide them and say that your gender and sex can be different things. Sure, two women might have different gender expression, if you mean that they wear different clothing or talk differently, but they are still both women. Since this is the case, talking about gender expression or gender identity seems rather pointless to me. It’s about culture and individual expression. I’d rather just talk about someone’s “sex” and then talk about how they specifically act. I do not believe you can be a male and have a female gender identity. I believe that as a man you can act out what is a female gender identity, but I think this is unhelpful, wrong, and doesn’t make sense. That man is acting out a gender identity that doesn’t match his sex.

    Like

  34. A Quiet Voice says:

    Ultimately the conversation ended here:

    “I see, your disagreement with those at Jack’s site is about definitions and classifications and not with ethical questions. Makes more sense now. Thank you, we can leave it there for now. Now I understand a lot better your views and where you are coming from. Thank you for taking the time for that”

    Like

  35. thorin25 says:

    Yes it did. Was that not okay to end that conversation where we did at the time? I don’t see what the point is of pasting our old conversation. I’m totally at a loss of what you are trying to ask me right now. Like I’ve said to others many times, I might just be dense or too tired – the fault may be entirely mine. But just being honest, I’m not sure what you are asking anymore, with all your last comments, I just got really confused.

    If you want to keep talking about this, it might help to restate your question in a simple way without pasting lots of old comments. Then we can start from a more clear place that I understand.

    Like

  36. A Quiet Voice says:

    Yes. You are correct. living and corresponding from different time zones has its challenges. Basically I think we are in agreement on a great many issues and topics. We agree that cross dressing is spiritually and morally destructive for a variety of reasons, comparable to drug or alcohol addictions.

    I think where we differ is that you seem unable, or unwilling, to accept the concept of a “sex change”. I can understand your difficulty considering all the possible interpretations, pre-dispositions, conflations with gender, and semantics involved.

    Nevertheless, I can agree with you that a MAN, cannot change his SEX to woman anymore than a horse can be changed into zebra by painting stripes on it. IMO this is what trans-genders and cross dressers do when they adopt feminine affectations such as clothing, wigs, shoes, make-up, etc.

    However, and this seems to be where our disagreements are based, very rare cases do exist where individuals are born/birthed with inconsistent sexual characteristics. These are your statistically insignificant inter-sexed and trans-sexed individuals.

    Most unfortunately, and quite frankly tragically for many, the media and pop culture have thrown everybody, ‘transgenders”, cross dressers, effeminate men, butch lesbians and just about anybody not “gender normative” into and under this ubiquitous transgender “umbrella”. This is like saying all Americans are the same. Not even close to the truth.

    It is this conflation that causes most of the difficulties for anybody and everybody forced into/under this overly broad and loosely defined grouping. One size does not fit all and different pathologies require different treatment protocols. Now this is waaa….aayyy off base to your stated objective of helping men throw off that pernicious addiction to cross-dressing which causes them such grief. What I suffered from, and was cured from, ages ago has nothing to with what you and your brothers are striving to do.

    Bringing up stuff from angry radical feminists bears little relevance and does little more than just distract from those issues that matter most to your readers, and I am encouraged that you have reconsidered your views on that matter.

    I guess my question to you would be, “How can I help you and your brothers achieve your goals?”

    Like

  37. thorin25 says:

    Okay thank you very much. It’s much easier now to reply to this last comment.

    Firstly, while it is my main intention to help those struggling with crossdressing as an addiction, we are also reaching out to those Christian men struggling with the idea that they are really women in men’s bodies, and trying to help them find wholeness and healing and true identity without getting surgery. This is as I said in a previous comment –

    “It may interest you to know that while my blog is primarily about crossdressing, I also talk about transgenderism. There are men in our community and prayer chain who have struggled greatly with wanting to start living as women, and some who did live as women for a time and have went back to living as men. As a community we are trying to help all Christian men live as men, and live for Christ. That means not crossdressing, and not living as women when we are men. So I want you to understand that if you are here, you will hear talk about both of these subjects.”

    Secondly, you said –
    “However, and this seems to be where our disagreements are based, very rare cases do exist where individuals are born/birthed with inconsistent sexual characteristics. These are your statistically insignificant inter-sexed and trans-sexed individuals.”

    I am well aware of inter-sexed individuals. But I do not see how they in any way prove the arguments that transsexuals make for getting sex reassignment surgery. How do you see the correlation? You keep implying that I am lumping them together. I most assuredly am not. I think crossdressers, transsexuals, and intersexed people are each very different and distinct from one another. (however I think there is great overlap and common issues and struggles among these different groups as well). It is exactly BECAUSE I view intersexual conditions as different from transgender conditions that I don’t think one can use intersexual conditions to argue for why normal men with healthy, non-intersexed bodies should get sexual reassignment surgery.

    If you have a good argument as to why men with healthy male bodies should get sexual reassignment surgery and call themselves women, I’m glad to hear it. I can’t really give you my opinion of your argument for this if I haven’t heard it. This was what I was trying to get at a bit in our discussion on our welcome page, but I didn’t want to push or get into a debate at that time, and was content to hear what you believed without having you argue your case. But if you wish to discuss the arguments for why some people do this, we can and it could be interesting, especially both coming from a Christian perspective.

    Thirdly, I don’t know how you could best help us who have struggled with crossdressing. On the one hand, it is not your experience. On the second hand, on the one area where your experience intersects with ours (that of your own mtf-transition or whatever term you want to use if that one is offensive), we disagree from what I can tell so far. So, all I can think of is that you can pray for all these guys who are struggling. And that would be very much appreciated. You can look at my email prayer chain page, and just read through the list of guys and pray for them if you wish.

    Like

  38. A Quiet Voice says:

    Lot’s of stuff in this one partial paragraph alone. “I think crossdressers, transsexuals, and intersexed people are each very different and distinct from one another.”

    OK. This is good. We agree to this point.

    “…(however I think there is great overlap and common issues and struggles among these different groups as well).”

    OK…Like what? Because while I do agree that all these different folks might all have some ” common issues and struggles “, (like your basic needs for food, shelter and human intimacy)…I certainly do not see any parallels in the context of your blog.

    “If you have a good argument as to why men with healthy male bodies should get sexual reassignment surgery and call themselves women, I’m glad to hear it’

    I do not have such an argument, nor am I making that argument. On the contrary, I would strong urge any and all “men with healthy male bodies” contemplating “sexual reassignment surgery (in order to) call themselves women” to urgently seek psychological and/or spiritual counsel.

    These MEN clearly are not women. They are men who have allowed their addiction to progress to the point where their brain has become so conditioned and dependent upon that dopamine rush that they have convinced themselves that they are “women”. This is a serious affliction that IMO is criminally enabled by TG activists and their money grubbing “therapists”.

    These trans-GENDERED MEN are not transsexuals. What did merit some notice on my part was this, your statement: “I don’t want to get into the biology of #9, nor do I want to read all the comments on that page. It’s an uncomfortable graphic topic and I don’t feel a need to delve into it more”

    Yet you feel free to hold your belief that, “I disagree. I don’t think it is possible for women to be born with a male body. I think that sentence is actually nonsensical. By very definition a woman has a woman’s body. This is a disagreement we have. But please understand that is the perspective of this site. So don’t expect me to talk differently about it.”

    It is this, your perspective, that I was encouraging you to widen by reading the perspective of others; others who obviously have experienced life quite differently than yours. You are certainly entitled to your views and opinions.
    I just see a lot of those opinions coming from a position of ignorance, (lack of knowledge). This was the analogy I used of the two blind men passionately arguing over the most appropriate color carpet to use in their new home for the blind.

    Finally, you are correct that I have no real experience or personal understanding of the struggle that most of your readers are dealing with. Nevertheless, I have done some limited reading n the subject and can see the obvious problems. Perhaps you are correct that I have nothing go offer. other than to help point out the delusionary elements involved and how the “conventional wisdom” promulgated by the “transgender ethic” on this subject is to far from wise, honest, or even accurate.

    Like

  39. thorin25 says:

    Common issues like trying to figure out what it means to be a man, or a woman. Trying to figure out what things are just cultural stereotypes and what isn’t. Trying to be content in our identity even if we don’t fit the cultural stereotypes. Figuring out how our body matches or does not match our gender expression. And more along these lines. Further crossdressing is involved in transgenderism as well. Further, many who crossdress as an addiction end up getting a sex change later in life.

    About transsexuals. You keep talking past me. I don’t know if you are doing so on purpose.

    You said, “These trans-GENDERED MEN are not transsexuals. ”

    What I want to know is this. The people that YOU refer to as transsexuals. What is your argument as to why they should get sexual reassignment surgery. I know that you think a lot of transgendered men are not true transsexuals. But tell me what you think about the people who ARE true transsexuals.

    I’m not trying to get you to sort out who is a true transsexual and who is not. That is your beef with the crossdreaming site I think. I’m not talking about that at all. Tell me what you think a true transsexual is, and what your argument is that they should get SRS, and live as the sex that doesn’t match their body (whether your arguments are biological, theological, emotional, or all 3 or something else).

    Like

  40. A Quiet Voice says:

    I have only encountered a total of three people online that I would consider “real” transsexuals, or more accurately, who were born with total psycho-sexual inversion . None in “real life” or in the flesh except for Jamison Green. If you “goolge” him you might find his book, “On Becoming a Visible Man”, which I highly recommend. Compare that to the tens of thousands of TG or those claiming to be transsexual as if it were some badge of honor.

    These issues–“like trying to figure out what it means to be a man, or a woman. Trying to figure out what things are just cultural stereotypes and what isn’t. Trying to be content in our identity even if we don’t fit the cultural stereotypes. Figuring out how our body matches or does not match our gender expression. And more along these lines”–were never of any concern to me, in that they had no relationship to what I perceived to be a cosmic screw-up of epic proportions or just a cruel joke.

    Based on my online conversations with the three women that I mentioned above, those issues just never came up. Now Jamison, with whom I had a relatively brief but intense personal encounter saw things differently as he grew up as a lesbian, so a lot of what you will find in his book will not apply to me or the other three women.

    In addition, I must make it clear to you that I have absolutely no experience with what is commonly referred to as ‘intersex’, except to say that it too is an extremely difficult situation to get sorted out.

    Now…as to the transsexual condition, I do have some personal experience and can share with you what has been, or was, MY experience. While there did exist just a few parallels and similarities, I can assure you that every single one of the experiences of the three women I mentioned above and mine were all very different and distinct except for one singular common feature. What was that common feature? We ALL knew from day one, (IE: our earliest moments of self awareness), that we were female.

    Just for one moment, try to imagine the horror we experienced when we “discovered” that our bodies were “male”. Another common feature that we shared is that this “discovery/understanding” took place very early in our existence, well before any cultural awareness. I honestly do not believe that you can because you have no personal frame of reference, which is why I said, (with no intention of being cruel or unkind), that you truly, honestly did not have a clue. I do sincerely apologize if that offended you, but it is the truth.

    As for any “argument” as to why people such as myself, should correct their bodies to match their minds, I can only suggest that if you could correct a physical defect, like a defective liver, heart or kidney, and it would save your life would you do that? Or would you take the route of the Christian Scientist and accept “God’s Will” unto death?

    “Further crossdressing is involved in transgenderism as well.” Yes, I agree.

    “Further, many who crossdress as an addiction end up getting a sex change later in life.” Yes. A tragic mistake, enabled IMHO by the prolific psycho-babble of the TG activists and the PC secularists.

    Like

  41. thorin25 says:

    Thanks A quiet voice, that is exactly what I was hoping for. Now I can respond to your thoughts.

    Firstly, while I acknowledge you have much more experience with this topic than I do, as you’ve lived it, and obviously dialogued with many others, I do still have to say that your story of your experience doesn’t really sound different from the many transgendered people I’ve read online, some of whom have already gone through SRS and could be called transsexuals. They also say they have “always” known that they were truly male or truly female, and were horrified at their body. Maybe I’m not truly catching the nuances that you are trying to point out, but to me it does sound like the same thing I hear all the time from other transsexuals.

    Secondly, let me probe or challenge you a bit. You said, “We ALL knew from day one, (IE: our earliest moments of self awareness), that we were female.”

    What does that even mean? We hardly even know that we are human when we are first self aware, and we surely don’t understand what it means to be human at that stage. How could you possibly know you were female? And what would that even mean? The only things we knew from our first moments of self awareness were the stimuli we were taking in through touch, smell, sight, etc. So the only way a child could get any definitions as to what male and female are would be to notice the different body types.

    I’m trying to wrap my head around what you said, but I don’t think it makes sense. I’m just being honest. You say you felt these things from your earliest experiences, but how could you when in the earliest experiences you didn’t even have these terms and definitions to use to make sense of anything.

    I understand that we can have true feelings, even if we don’t know what words to use to label them, and a child could have feelings that they have trouble articulating. But even if we concede that, I still don’t see how a child could “feel female” and be horrified at their body. The only way I can think about that rationally is that perhaps a male child thought of himself as having a female body, having these thoughts before actually seeing his body for the first time, and then upon seeing his male body, being shocked and surprised. But even in this case, I don’t see how a baby would have any expectations at all about their body….

    You see the reasoning of all my questions? I don’t see how what you said makes any sense.

    Last, you said, “As for any “argument” as to why people such as myself, should correct their bodies to match their minds, I can only suggest that if you could correct a physical defect, like a defective liver, heart or kidney, and it would save your life would you do that? Or would you take the route of the Christian Scientist and accept “God’s Will” unto death?”

    Yes, if I concluded that there was really something wrong someone’s body, (such as the case with intersexuals), than I would advocate using medical help to rectify the situation as best as we can.

    Like

  42. A Quiet Voice says:

    “…a child could have feelings that they have trouble articulating. But even if we concede that, I still don’t see how a child could “feel female” and be horrified at their body”

    I think the operative words here are “still don’t see how a child could “feel female” and be horrified at their body”. This is what I mean when I say you have no frame of reference.

    All these “transsexuals” that you have met, may of may not be genuine. I have no way of judging that. However, and this is a key identifier, if they are still having “doubts” or problems, then I would suggest to you that they made a huge and tragic mistake.

    It seems to me that I simply am not able to pass simple facts and concepts to you. Could it be that you are taking my words and then “interpreting” them to fit your personal frame of reference and experience? I can see where this is the case when I say that I “know of” THREE other women and ONE man, who WERE in fact, what I would describe as transsexual, and you “interpret that to mean that I have “…obviously dialogued with many others,” Really?!? Huh?!?

    You say that, “I still have to say that your story of your experience doesn’t really sound different from the many transgendered people I’ve read online, some of whom have already gone through SRS and could be called transsexuals.”. Really??? I think perhaps what you are hearing is exactly what you, (and they) want to/must(?) hear which is ….that “They also say they have “always” known that they were truly male or truly female, and were horrified at their body”.

    I think that you should add this to your list of “Transgendered Tropes 101”.

    What I am picking up from what you write below is that you are totally invested in the TG narrative and are completely unwilling or simply unable to perceive the difference between a grown, healthy MAN with need/dream/wish to be a woman, and a WOMAN or more accurately a very young FEMALE child, born with the sexual morphology of a male.

    “Maybe I’m not truly catching the nuances that you are trying to point out, but to me it does sound like the same thing I hear all the time from other transsexuals.”
    You see what you are again doing is, re-hashing the same old transgender trope. You seem to insist that there simply CANNOT exist any difference just because you are unable to perceive it and/or you cannot wrap your head around it.

    I get that and there is nothing that I can do to help you, You either “get it” or you don’t. This is similar to you trying to convince a non[believer or an atheist as to the existence of God and the divinity of Jesus the Christ.

    Like

  43. A Quiet Voice says:

    Let me try it this way. Your words…

    “Yes, if I concluded that there was really something wrong someone’s body, (such as the case with intersexuals), than I would advocate using medical help to rectify the situation as best as we can.”

    Now, try changing one key pronoun.

    Yes, if I concluded that there was really something wrong with MY body, (such as the case with intersexuals), than I would advocate using medical help to rectify the situation as best as I can.

    Like

  44. thorin25 says:

    A Quiet Voice, when I said you dialogued with many others, I was referring both to the people you think of as true transsexuals and the people you believe are just confused. My point was that you have heard more people’s stories than I have most likely. This was a compliment, not an insult. I have no idea why you took offense.

    Why do you take issue with what I have heard from other transsexuals online? My goodness, look for yourself. It takes 2 minutes scanning blogs of transsexuals to see that many say the same similar things. I’m not saying they are correct in their assessments about themselves. I’m just saying that is what they say.

    While rejecting much of what I just said as possible answers to my question, you didn’t answer my question.

    You said, “We ALL knew from day one, (IE: our earliest moments of self awareness), that we were female.”

    What does that even mean? What exactly did you know? What did “female” mean to you when you were first self aware? What moments of self awareness are you referring to, when you were a baby, when you were 4 years old, something else? You didn’t answer these questions at all so I still have no idea what you mean, and am starting to wonder if you really know what you mean. Perhaps you do know what you mean, but then please share with me otherwise this conversation is kinda pointless.

    You say –
    “What I am picking up from what you write below is that you are totally invested in the TG narrative and are completely unwilling or simply unable to perceive the difference between a grown, healthy MAN with need/dream/wish to be a woman, and a WOMAN or more accurately a very young FEMALE child, born with the sexual morphology of a male.
    “Maybe I’m not truly catching the nuances that you are trying to point out, but to me it does sound like the same thing I hear all the time from other transsexuals.”
    You see what you are again doing is, re-hashing the same old transgender trope. You seem to insist that there simply CANNOT exist any difference just because you are unable to perceive it and/or you cannot wrap your head around it.”

    You are dodging the question! I can’t wrap my head around your view because you haven’t explained it yet. I’m always open to learning new things and changing my view even on this issue. But how can I change my view when you’ve presented me with no argument? You haven’t even explained your convoluted sentence about how you felt female from your first times of self-awareness. Perhaps if you present your argument, then I can be convinced by it and change my view. Don’t say I’m stuck in my own views when you don’t even tell me your view to let me consider it. That’s not fair at all.

    As an aside, in defense of people who claim to be transsexuals who you reject as true transsexuals, I don’t think it’s fair for you to say they are different from you just because they had doubts and you didn’t. I’ve had doubts about my Christian faith, that doesn’t make me not a true Christian. I’ve had doubts about my sexuality, that doesn’t make me not a true heterosexual. I’ve had doubts about my manhood, that doesn’t make me not a man. What scientific or any other type of basis do you have for making doubts criteria for whether one is truly transsexual or not? But that is beside the point as I don’t think any men are true transsexuals, by that I mean I don’t think any men have male bodies and female souls. So let’s focus on the question above.

    Like

  45. A Quiet Voice says:

    “So let’s focus on the question above”.

    OK. Let’s just ignore everything that I have said to you because it makes no sense to you and, “your story of your experience doesn’t really sound different from the many transgendered people I’ve read online, some of whom have already gone through SRS and could be called transsexuals.”

    I am dodging the question? Because, “I can’t wrap my head around your view because you haven’t explained it yet.”???

    What part of D I F F E R E N T am I not explaining to you? Is it the part about the very real possibility that you are , “completely unwilling or simply unable to perceive the difference between a grown, healthy MAN with need/dream/wish to be a woman, and a WOMAN or more accurately a very young FEMALE child, born with the sexual morphology of a male.”?

    Or maybe its the part about “earliest moments of self awareness”. I am obviously confused as you are because I seem to understand the concept of SELF awareness as an awareness of SELF as distinct from OTHERS. I tink this goes just a little beyond the simple senses of smell hearing, sight and touch, although those senses contribute to that consciousness.

    You said much earlier that you had no wish nor desire for me to sort out or define for you the differences between TG and TS and yet it seems to me that that is exactly what you are focusing on. Why is that?

    “when I said you dialogued with many others, I was referring both to the people you think of as true transsexuals and the people you believe are just confused. My point was that you have heard more people’s stories than I have most likely. This was a compliment, not an insult. I have no idea why you took offense.”

    I take no offense. It is just that you seem to believe that because I have engaged with many MEN, claiming to be “women or transsexual, that I should therefore agree with your conclusion that, “I do still have to say that your story of your experience doesn’t really sound different from the many transgendered people I’ve read online, some of whom have already gone through SRS and could be called transsexuals”. You know that I believe tat there is a significant difference and yet you insist that “prove” that to you or “explain” it to you.

    I have done my best. Perhaps you might consider that I can’t prove to you that I KNOW God exists. Can you? The bottom line is this: “What scientific or any other type of basis do you have for making doubts criteria for whether one is truly transsexual or not? But that is beside the point as I don’t think any men are true transsexuals, by that I mean I don’t think any men have male bodies and female souls.” So there you have it. You have answered your own question. Q.E.D.

    “But that is beside the point as I don’t think any men are true transsexuals, by that I mean I don’t think any men have male bodies and female souls.”

    “So let’s focus on the question above”.

    Really??? You want to go round the circle again? Forgive me for respectfully declining.

    Like

  46. thorin25 says:

    Sigh. All I was asking was for you to explain your view. You keep saying I don’t understand. “We ALL knew from day one, (IE: our earliest moments of self awareness), that we were female.”

    I will never understand unless you define your terms and define what this sentence means. By itself this sentence communicates little. After all, the whole debate hinges around what “female” means. So to just say that you felt “female” tells me basically nothing for the purpose of this discussion.

    Anyway I don’t mind at all you declining to go into it. If you don’t want to talk further, it doesn’t hurt my feelings.

    Like

  47. thorin25 says:

    And I was not asking you to prove anything. I was hoping for clarification as to what your view actually is, and then if you wanted to go further you could give me some reasonable ideas for why to believe that it is true. Proof? No I don’t expect that, just like you said, I can’t prove God’s existence to someone either. But I can give them rational reasons for believing that he does exist, and I can explain what I mean by the terms “God” and “exist.”

    Like

  48. A Quiet Voice says:

    “I will never understand unless you define your terms and define what this sentence means.”

    Nooo…You will never understand because you consciously choose to not “think any men are true transsexuals, by that I mean I don’t think any men have male bodies and female souls.”

    I believe you when you say this, and I feel no compunction to try to change your mind. You “know’ or believe what you think you know or believe. Why would I want or need to change your mind? I don’t.

    What do you mean when you say you “feel” like a man? I mean how difficult is this? How much to you really want to attempt to deconstruct this. You asked me to explain to you what or how I understand certain things. I tried my best. I failed. Does this men that my beliefs or understandings of my reality are not valid because you “cannot wrap your head around” the singular and unique experience of another human being? Are the beliefs of a Muslim, or a Buddhist any less valid than yours because you cannot comprehend them or simply believe differently?

    I have to wonder though what you would say to a little girl or boy, say three, four or five years old. “Are you a boy or a girl?” They tell you. Would you insist that they explain to you how they know? They just know.

    If you insist on taking this further, I refer you to Wikipedia:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-awareness

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female

    “I was hoping for clarification as to what your view actually is…”

    My views on what? Transsexualism? Transgenderism? I have already offered those to you, yet you seem unable to grasp the distinction. Could this be because despite your statement that you are aware that both these conditions exist, you seem to deny the existence of one, (TS’sm), choosing to intentionally conflate it with the other, (TG’ism)? To wit: ” But that is beside the point as I don’t think any men are true transsexuals, by that I mean I don’t think any men have male bodies and female souls.”

    Or…Am I reading you wrong?

    Like

  49. thorin25 says:

    “I believe you when you say this, and I feel no compunction to try to change your mind. You “know’ or believe what you think you know or believe. Why would I want or need to change your mind? I don’t.”

    Then why did you take an issue with my blog post in the first place? You started this debate, not me. If you think it’s okay for me to believe what I believe, and you don’t want to change my mind, then don’t criticize my posts and say that I know nothing and am clueless. I quote you – “I would ask one thing, and one thing only. Leave men and women born transsexual out of it, They really honestly have nothing to do with what it is you are all going on about. You are comparing and conflating apples and oranges again and this particular orange, while not offended most certainly finds this entire discourse highly obnoxious and distasteful.” Doesn’t sound like someone who thinks its okay for me to believe this and isn’t trying to change my mind.

    “Are the beliefs of a Muslim, or a Buddhist any less valid than yours because you cannot comprehend them or simply believe differently?”

    I do not think the views of Muslims and Buddhists are valid. I am not a relativist. If Christianity is true, then necessarily much of what Muslims and Buddhists believe is false (even if they believe many things that are true). Religions are not equally true. There is objective truth to reality, even if some of us are wrong about it.

    Little boys and little girls can speak to me about how they feel they are a boy or girl, but first they have to have been taught those words in a specific language, and how they are used in a specific culture.

    I don’t care about what wikipedia says. I want to know what YOU mean by those words, because you mean something very different from me. For example, in my definition of female I would get into the biology of females, perhaps similar to what the wikipedia article says. But that is not the definition of female to you because you claim that some people without that biology (what I would term male biology) are in fact females. So then what does “female” mean to you? Again, I have no idea what you really believe. I gave some suggestions as to what you might believe and you rejected them. If you believe that being female is not about our bodies but just about our souls, then tell me if that is the case. And what makes a female soul distinct from a male soul? It should not be hard to tell me what you believe if you know what you believe. If you really think you yourself are a female, for example, then you should be able to tell me what a female is.

    Can I tell you what I mean by male? Yes. I could talk about XY chromosomes, I could talk about secondary sex characteristics, how my genitals are different from females, what some general behavioral differences there are between men and women that studies have shown, etc. So yes, I can tell you what I mean by that term.

    “My views on what? Transsexualism? Transgenderism? I have already offered those to you, yet you seem unable to grasp the distinction.”

    No you have not given me your view. You said “We ALL knew from day one, (IE: our earliest moments of self awareness), that we were female.” But still, still I have no clue what you mean by female. You are using words, and using them in a different way than we use them in English. That is fine! You can do that! You can use a same word and give a different meaning to it. I don’t care. But then tell me your new meaning. If you don’t, I don’t know what you mean, and then this conversation remains pointless.

    If you are not ready to answer these questions, then this particular conversation is over, because we aren’t getting anywhere and I don’t want to waste my time talking more about it. I am wiling to take criticism and learn from others. But if you criticize me and my posts without offering me any alternative explanations, then how can I learn and change?

    Like

  50. A Quiet Voice says:

    Ultimately I think it comes down to one’s understanding of self. Perhaps it is this personal understanding that needs to be reconciled with our personal understanding of God and our relationship with/to Him. In my mind, or my way of thinking–that being my opinion–it is this personal understanding of self, and how we relate to our God and to others in our world that determines who we are as seen, not only by ourselves, but by those around us.

    If one is in fact a man, and not a woman, then it would not only feel un-natural, but IMO it would actually BE, un-natural, to act, dress, or pretend to be a woman.

    If on the other hand, one actually is a woman, despite having been cursed with anomalous sexual characteristics, then obviously, (at least to me), it would follow that a woman, acting as or behaving/dressing as a man, would/could be seen as un-natural.

    Now, based on our discussions, it seems to me that your difficulty, or at the very least, our sticking point, is your outright rejection of the possibility of a woman, (or man), being born with anomalous–as opposed to ambiguous genitalia. For you perhaps, this is an absolute. I do not see it that way.

    You seem comfortable with the notion of “inter-sex: IE, ambiguous or co-existent genitalia. Have you considered the source of such anomalies? Could it not be that the same mechanisms which cause such readily visible dysfunctions/malfunctions, cause similar or related issues at an even more microscopic and/or neural level.

    Surely you are aware that when a fetus initially begins to take form within the mother’s womb, the initial structures, the brain, the gonads, everything…come into existence as female. It is only the subsequent hormonal “washes” or inputs, triggered by the genetic coding that causes those relevant structures to differentiate into male/female.

    It is relatively common science that shows us that there exist a variety of physiological insults that can, and often do, disturb this incredibly complex process. I can send you some references if you think that might help you.

    As always your friend,

    A.QuietVoice

    Like

  51. thorin25 says:

    Yes I can conceive “the possibility of a woman (or man), being born with anomalous–as opposed to ambiguous genitalia. of it.” But conceiving of it, is not enough to convince me to believe in it. I can conceive many different possible scenarios, and I’ve mentioned a few. But you still have not told me what you believe. Still did not answer the question. I don’t know what male and female mean to you. Again, I can think of various answers to this question that disagree with my own views. But I’m not going to answer it for you because I don’t know what you think. Guess we will just have to let this matter rest.

    Like

  52. A Quiet Voice says:

    “Then why did you take an issue with my blog post in the first place?”

    I took issue with this statement that you made: ” But the main thesis of it is true.”

    That being, as I interpreted your words, that the main gist or content of “Transgender Tropes 101” was true.

    I disputed that “truth” and suggested you mull through the commentary to get some alternative arguments, which you declined to do.

    This is of course your choice and I am not here to convince, cajole or persuade you to do otherwise. However. I do believe that you invited me to expand upon my views on this subject and I sincerely apologize if I may have misinterpreted your invitation. In the end, and this does appear to be a good place for an “end” to this particular discourse, it seems we have more fundamental differences in our beliefs which I do not see as being easily resolved, as indicated by these, your words:

    “I do not think the views of Muslims and Buddhists are valid. I am not a relativist. If Christianity is true, then necessarily much of what Muslims and Buddhists believe is false (even if they believe many things that are true). Religions are not equally true. There is objective truth to reality, even if some of us are wrong about it.”

    As you so often suggest, I agree that we should just simply agree to disagree on this particular subject.

    Like

  53. A Quiet Voice says:

    “I don’t know what male and female mean to you”

    Wow! Really? Well, that is pretty simple. If you stand in front of a mirror naked, what do you see? If you got arrested, (God forbid!), where would the cops put you?

    When you stand naked before God, what does He see?

    Like

  54. thorin25 says:

    Standing in front of a mirror, your answer to that question would be different depending on whether you asked yourself that when you were a child or now after your surgeries. Those people you say are not true transsexuals who get sex changes, would see a woman staring back at them in the mirror. Does that make them women? Not according to me nor according to you. So I don’t think your answer about the mirror really states what you believe about what male and female are. When I stand naked before God, I believe he sees the same thing that I see in the mirror. In addition, he sees and knows all my thoughts, desires, wishes, memories, etc.

    On a different subject though, are you are a relativist? Do you believe whats true for me might not be whats true for a Muslim? I believe that since I believe in only 1 God, and Hindus believe in millions of gods, that necessarily either they or I is wrong, or both of us. What do you think?

    Like

  55. A Quiet Voice says:

    “So I don’t think your answer about the mirror really states what you believe about what male and female are”

    Well…as I stated above, you are free to think or believe what ever you choose to believe. I am not here to change your beliefs. You asked me this question: ““I don’t know what male and female mean to you”

    I suggested to you that Wikipedia’s definition seemed reasonable enough and worked for me. When you informed me that you felt no need to consult Wiki as an easy reference, I answered thusly to answer as simply as possible: “If you stand in front of a mirror naked, what do you see? If you got arrested, (God forbid!), where would the cops put you? When you stand naked before God, what does He see?”

    Yet for reasons not yet clear to me, you insist that I am not being truthful or forthcoming. IE, That this is not a “good enough” answer–that because some might be delusional in what they perceive in that mirror–that my perception, or understanding of male/female, is somehow suspect or “not good enough”.

    I can only conclude that you are in fact an absolutist and that your truth is the only truth that works for you. Be that as it may, I will again remind you that I suffer no burden of proof. You are free to believe what ever works for you. Your beliefs or understanding of your own subjective interpretation of reality is of absolutely no consequence to me.

    You have your own perception of reality which may very well differ from mine ad what other might perceive and that is just fine. Do you disagree?

    Like

  56. A Quiet Voice says:

    “When I stand naked before God, I believe he sees the same thing that I see in the mirror. In addition, he sees and knows all my thoughts, desires, wishes, memories, etc.’

    Indeed. Do you think that the same does not apply in my case? If so, why?

    Like

  57. thorin25 says:

    Sorry I guess you did finally answer the question of what female means to you. I responded the way I did I suppose because it seems to me you are functioning with two different definitions of female and don’t realize it. But I should have granted that you did answer the question finally. Sorry. It seems like you want to believe the same definition of female as the general society, except that in your own case that definition doesn’t apply. I would have thought you would say something about a female mind or female soul. Anyway, I don’t know how to keep this conversation going with what I see as inconsistencies in your view, and you are obviously frustrated with me as well. So let’s end there.

    Like

  58. A Quiet Voice says:

    I am not frustrated with you in the least. You have your views and beliefs and I respect your right to them. I do not perceive any inconsistencies, in how I perceive men and women and how they differ. As you noted, I accept societies general consensus on what it means to be a man or a woman, and I honestly can not see why/how you cannot accept that those understandings apply to me as well.

    Perhaps it is because I cannot ovulate or bear children? Or maybe because I was born with anomalous sexual characteristics which needed medical intervention so that I could function fully as a woman? In any case, as I stated earlier, it makes no difference to me. I am confident that if you met me in passing, or even if you got to know me over a period of time, you would have no reason to not accept me at face value for the simple old woman that I am.

    I am glad we had this conversation as it allowed me an opportunity to exercise what few mental faculties I still have at my disposal. I hope you enjoyed it as well and perhaps even gleaned some small bit of information that you did not previously possess.

    Be well and continue your good work.

    A Quiet Voice

    Like

  59. thorin25 says:

    Thank you A Quiet Voice. I’m sure we will talk more later about other things.

    Like

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s