Transsexuals accepted because of appearance?

I was reading this article the other day – Transgender Woman’s Selfie in a North Carolina Bathroom is the Best Selfie Ever – and the thought struck me that a large part of the reason that transsexuals are becoming more accepted today is because they are more visually convincing living as the opposite sex then they used to be in the past.  (Quick aside, I don’t view the person in the article as dangerous in the least and am not real concerned about the bathroom issue).

Obviously people like us have existed throughout history, far before the medical advances of this last century.  In the past, a man trying to live as a woman could not hide so easily.  Because of this, it seems like most cultures either embraced people like us as some kind of third gender, or they punished/killed them for their behavior.

Today, the situation is very different.  With our medical advances, transsexuals can actually really look like the opposite sex, not only in public, but even while naked alone with a lover.  What our doctors can do now is simply incredible and hard to believe.

And yet, even with all of these medical advances, some transsexuals are much more convincing than others, and some of them are much more attractive than others.  Now, think about this article.  Would this article be as effective if the person in it was not so attractive?  Would the article, the selfie, still work for the article if the person was clearly a man in a dress?

I want to argue that it would not.  The reason the selfie works to make the point for the article is that the person looks very much like a woman and is even beautiful.  It’s an emotional argument that basically comes down to, “don’t I look like a sweet innocent woman who is not a threat?  Do I really look like a man?” And the obvious answer, which I admit is, “yes, you do look like a sweet innocent woman who is not a threat.”  Yet what about the transsexuals who cannot afford the myriad of surgeries and hormones and everything else that this person probably went through?  What if our medical science wasn’t so advanced?  It seems odd that indirectly, in a way, transsexuals are arguing for acceptance, not because of who they are, but because of what our medical science is able to achieve.

I think that this is common for any kind of the transgender arguments that are out there today.  The poster children, the poster adults, for this movement are the ones who are able to be really convincing and attractive as the opposite sex.  They are the ones that make everyone else in the culture feel comfortable.  People are more uncomfortable when they see someone that isn’t fitting all of their gender boxes, and looks like some strange hybrid of masculinity and femininity.

I don’t think this is a wise form of argumentation for the transgender community.  I’m not only referring to this article and selfie but much of the emotional argumentation I’ve seen over the years.  This is a sure fire way to isolate those who don’t pass as well.  As if the standards of beauty in our culture weren’t terrible enough to make women go through eating disorders to live up to them, now transsexuals are using arguments and lines of reasoning that may end up coming back to hurt them, by forcing them to live up to strict standards of beauty.  They seem to be using arguments that will make their acceptance contingent on looking exactly like a real woman (or man).

But my bigger concern is this.  I think people in the wider culture are being duped.  If people would not accept someone who looks like a man in a dress in a women’s bathroom, than they shouldn’t accept someone like the person in the picture either.  It’s not consistent.  The genetics are the same in each case.  It’s just that one has a better disguise than the other.

Perhaps I should discuss the word acceptance.  I think all people should be treated fairly and with respect.  And I’m not sure what I think on the whole bathroom issue.  I want all people, including transsexuals, to feel safe, comfortable, and protected.  But what I mean by acceptance is the wider culture embracing transsexualism, celebrating it, and going beyond treating transsexuals with respect, to actually believing that they have truly changed their sex.

And this I think is just foolish.  If you wouldn’t view a man in a dress as a real woman, is the person in the picture any more a real woman, just because he has gone through surgeries and actually looks like a woman?  If you want to view transsexuals as people who have truly changed sex, that’s fine.  There are some interesting arguments out there that are based on more than just how people look.  But then be consistent, and use those arguments, not the types of arguments that come up such as in this selfie.  I don’t think most people in our culture realize that they are basing their decision to accept and celebrate transsexuals by looking at only those who are very attractive and convincing.

What does everyone else think?

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32 comments on “Transsexuals accepted because of appearance?

  1. The Sceptic says:

    “Transsexuals accepted because of appearance?” ~Thorin

    I don’t think so…unless of course you are speaking about some bizarre hierarchy which seems to exist in the TG “community” or maybe perhaps the blog-o-sphere. Personally I would not know as I am not very familiar with those realms. What makes it even more difficult is how the language has been twisted beyond what rational people might even begin to understand because the definition and meaning of words keep changing and are inter-changed.

    As I have tried to impress upon you before to the point you are probably getting tired of having me remind you, people born with a neurologically trans-sexed morphology, and trans-genders are not the same. Despite the fact that the TG lobby and activists have succeeded in conflating these two distinct terms so that life-style cross dressers are now “trans-women” and this of course equals transgender which is of course a “spectrum”….these life styles/fetish driven behaviors/”conditions” have NOTHING to do with the medically treatable condition previously and correctly described as Transsexualism.

    As to your rather loaded and obviously rhetorical question, which you answer in the form of an argument based on your own misunderstandings and biases, I would have to again reiterate my initial answer which is an unqualified NO. Appearance has little if anything to do with it unless of course you are referring to the obvious “man in a dress”.

    So despite your blatant disrespect for a young woman who self identifies as TRANSGENDER, you insist on mislabeling her as transsexual, (which many in the “community” consider a pejorative), and probably in an effort to bait me, I could be wrong, but I have to ask, why then do you insist on ignoring this distinction?

    But again, I digress. An individual born with this extremely rare medically treatable condition, can be essentially “cured” by under going a relatively straight forward medical protocol which realigns the person’s physical structures and endocrine balance to conform with the actual physiology of their brain. This is the treatment to address this misalignment. Once that person has successfully recovered from this rather painful process, they are, (IF PROPERLY DIAGNOSED in the first place), essentially cured. They can go on to live perfectly normal, healthy happy lives as productive men and women in society. Nothing as dramatic as all the grief an grievance championed in the TG sub-culture.

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  2. thorin25 says:

    I think you are misunderstanding my post. I’m talking about how the broader culture responds to transgender people and transsexuals. That is all.

    No I wasn’t trying to bait you. Do you think I enjoy arguing? Please do not act like your viewpoints are scientifically proven and everyone is an idiot who disagrees. Whether you are referring to me disagreeing with you, or people in the transgender community. Things are far from clear, which is why there is so much disagreement. We have to be able to discuss these things with respect and civility to get anywhere. That’s why I’m trying to do.

    I am not intentionally trying to disrespect anyone with the terms I use. Far from it. Where would that get me? It is extremely complicated to know which terms to use as it seems each person uses different terms and labels, and even people who use the same labels, use them in different ways. Hence, you are using the term transsexual in a vastly different way than the average person in the LGBT community. Which is fine, but don’t act like everyone else is stupid for using it in a different way than you.

    Keep in mind I am writing this blog, not to talk to you, who is the only one I have found with your position, but to the broad trans community, the TG lobby, those who are struggle with crossdressing, etc. You are welcome to chat here of course, but I’m just saying, I can’t make my target audience an audience of 1. I’m speaking to the people who have a different view than you, and I have a different view than you too.

    You have impressed upon me that certain people are born with intersexual conditions, which I already knew, and which can be corrected somewhat by medical surgeries. However, you have never proven the existence of people who are born transsexual. If you have a scientific website to back up that claim, I’d love to see it. Otherwise shouting about it over and over is not convincing.

    If this comment makes you angry, it may be better to not continue this conversation. I’m not trying to get in a fight. At times, it’s best to agree to disagree and move on.

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  3. The Sceptic says:

    You may be right Thorin, it very well could be that I am misunderstanding you, but I doubt it.
    Here is what I understand to be the crux of your argument: “But what I mean by acceptance is the wider culture embracing transsexualism, celebrating it, and going beyond treating transsexuals with respect, to actually believing that they have truly changed their sex….”

    If what are speaking about are the high profile public figures such as Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner or other media types which the pop culture media has latched onto as representative of what it is to actually have been born with a cross sexed neurology, then I have no argument with you at all as I do not see these folks as actually having suffered from that very rare neurological malady which I so vehemently distinguish from these transgender types. That is MY point…that there exists a clear and verifiable distinction.

    If it were not for the fact that you so willingly and seemingly intentionally ignore that distinction, we would have no argument at all and I simply support your efforts to help people break that vicious addiction to women’s clothing and accouterments.

    “…And this I think is just foolish. If you wouldn’t view a man in a dress as a real woman, is the person in the picture any more a real woman, just because he has gone through surgeries and actually looks like a woman?”

    I don’t know. If I encountered this young woman on the street, or in a restroom, I probably would not even look twice. Why would I? It is only this unrelenting effort by the TG lobby that has
    made this into a highly divisive political issue.

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  4. The Sceptic says:

    What really irks me are disingenuous conflations like this: “…it seems like most cultures either embraced people like us as some kind of third gender, or they punished/killed them for their behavior.

    Today, the situation is very different. With our medical advances, transsexuals can actually really look like the opposite sex, not only in public, but even while naked alone with a lover.”

    It sounds like you are implying that ” people like us” are transsexuals. Who exactly are these people? Who are you including in that all-inclusive “us”. Certainly not yourself, a recovering cross dresser.

    So I hope you can see the basis for my objection. You and I are as different as….well, male and female. You are a man. You live and work as a man and you happen to have this odd, rather inexplicable predilection for feminine attire. I have no such predilection and I exist simply as a woman. You demand scientific “proof” of my existence as a “real” woman as if I have some need to justify myself and yet you offer no such “scientific proof” for your belief in God and that Scripture is anything more than a rather extensively edited collection of old writings written by men unknown.

    I know that you find my existence troublesome because you seem unable, (or perhaps unwilling) to understand that all things are not black and white. What you should understand however, or at least be willing to look into with an open mind, is that the transgender agenda/movement/belief system is just a modern evolution of the old Virginia Prince meme that cross dressing is just a “natural expression of a man’s feminine side”. Well we both agree that that is simply bunk. Cross dressing is a fetish and nothing more. It has nothing at all to that totally distinct condition formerly known as Transsexualism despite what the transgenderists will tell you.

    They will also tell you that most transgenders never seek out surgery and that there is no “right way” to be a transgender or trans* person. In other words, what ever works for you is the “right way”. So this is the fallacious logic used to conflate simple fetish driven cross dressing with what is essentially a neurological disorder.

    I just cannot understand how after a rather extensive and laborious explanation of how transgendered people are in no way related to transsexuals, you seem to ignore everything I say and begin your rebuttal with…..
    ” I’m talking about how the broader culture responds to transgender people and transsexuals.” You keep acting and speaking as if these are the same thing.

    And please do not presume to infer meanings to my words which are in no way implied or suggested, I do not consider you an idiot or “stupid” for not agreeing with me, (stubborn maybe), which is why I keep trying to present you with simple facts and realities. I do not try to label things or squeeze square pegs into round holes. I just like to keep things simple and understanding and agreeing upon the correct meaning of the words used is fundamental requirement of successful communication.

    At the end of your post you asked what we thought of your post. I have given you my thoughts on the subject. And no, I am not in anyway “angry”. Not even in the least.

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  5. thorin25 says:

    There is a difference. I do not believe I can prove to you that God exists and that the Bible is true. I believe it, and I offer arguments and evidence for it, but I definitely do not think everyone must believe the same way I do. And if I did want to convince someone, I know I would have to offer some good evidence.

    Yet, you keep repeating over and over to me, that I am wrong, without giving me evidence. But you have the burden of proof because you are trying to get me to see that I am wrong.

    “I know that you find my existence troublesome because you seem unable, (or perhaps unwilling) to understand that all things are not black and white”

    I have read A LOT on crossdressing, transgenderism, and transsexuality, and I have never ever seen any scientific proof that some people are born transsexuals. Therefore, I am extremely curious and interested to learn this proof you speak of. If you are so sure that you are right, and that I am wrong, and there is a real scientific condition, and I shouldn’t be conflating transgendered people with those who have the real scientific condition, then you can please tell me more about the real scientific condition and give me some links to read.

    Otherwise, simply coming here and repeating that I am wrong over and over, or that I am conflating people, doesn’t help. Just as I would not go to an atheist’s website and repeatedly say over and over that he is wrong, without offering some evidence.

    “which is why I keep trying to present you with simple facts and realities”
    You have not presented me with any “facts” with any backup for them. You just keep making statements. Similar to if I went to an atheist’s site and say, “God exists.” It’s a simple fact.

    So again, you are very much welcome here, and welcome to keep commenting. But I don’t know why you are afraid to teach me what you know? If you want to convince me, then convince me. I am very open to it! But your existence does not convince me, just as my existence would not convince people to believe in God and trust the Bible.

    So you have to offer me something beyond that. But if you don’t want to, that is fine! I understand! It’s hard. It takes time. If you would rather not, then again, we can agree to disagree.

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  6. The Sceptic says:

    OK. So you “have read A LOT on crossdressing, transgenderism, and transsexuality, and I have never ever seen any scientific proof that some people are born transsexuals.”

    So am I to infer from this that you HAVE found “scientific proof” that cross dressing and “transgenderism”, (however you might be defining this ubiquitous and nebulous term), DO exist? Or is it that since you have this mysterious affliction along with millions of other men, you simply have agreed that yes, it does in fact exist. That works for me much better than the pontifications of men who cross dress insisting that their fetish is the same as transsexualism, or that because they have no understanding or need to bring their body into alignment with their mind, they simply deny the existence of what they simply cannot or refuse to understand. Sounds a lot like your atheist denying the existence of God because you can provide him with no ‘scientific proof’.

    I guess what mystifies me is why you, who clearly recognize cross dressing as a troublesome and deeply ingrained fetishistic behavior, have such a strong motivation to equate or conflate it with a much more serious affliction which requires some rather difficult and some would argue radical, medical intervention? Why refuse to acknowledge an obvious difference?

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  7. thorin25 says:

    You and I both agree that we exist. Crossdressers exist who have a sexual desire to crossdress. Others exist who don’t have any sexual desire (it seems at least) to crossdress, but do desire to change their bodies to match how they believe they feel inside. Of course these people exist. Of course you exist.

    But that’s not what you are insisting and disagreeing with me about. You are insisting that not only do these people exist, but that scientifically it is a fact that they require medical surgeries. I don’t agree in the least. They do not require surgeries for their healthy bodies. I believe that they don’t feel like they fit in because of unhealthy gender stereotypes, and they need to learn to be themselves and accept their bodies.

    For me, I do see that crossdressers who end up wanting to transition are in a different sort of category than people who are born naturally different from their real sex, and who desire those radical medical operations. But it is not “scientific fact” as you want to say, that we should treat these people differently. I believe that in both cases, we have to learn to accept who we are, fully and completely, including our bodies, not pursue surgeries in either case, and not crossdress in either case.

    You think I am conflating them, but that is only because my response to each other does not include the medical surgeries as you want it to.

    Do you understand? The conflation that you see is not a conflation at all. We both acknowledge the different types of people. But while you think one group should get surgeries and the other group not, I believe that both should not get surgery. This doesn’t mean I’m conflating anything. This means I have a different belief about what the best course of action is for these people, than what your belief is about the best course of action for those people.

    This is as clear as night and day for me. We disagree. It’s not a big deal. I really think it’s time we end this discussion. You are not going to convince me that people like you needed surgery, unless you give some reasoning for it. Endlessly stating your position is not going to change my mind.

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  8. thorin25 says:

    “I guess what mystifies me is why you, who clearly recognize cross dressing as a troublesome and deeply ingrained fetishistic behavior, have such a strong motivation to equate or conflate it with a much more serious affliction which requires some rather difficult and some would argue radical, medical intervention? Why refuse to acknowledge an obvious difference?”

    Just to be crystal clear. You are confusing two things in this question. Acknowledging that there are two types of people with different problems. Yes I do acknowledge that. Acknowledging that one type requires medical intervention? No I don’t agree with that. I think you are conflating the types of people and the types of responses we should give. I believe there are two types of people, but I don’t agree with how we should respond to 1 of those types of people, even though we do agree on how to respond to crossdressers

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  9. The Sceptic says:

    Aaah…finally progress. It seems now that what you are saying is that there are in fact (at least) two different categories of people with at a minimum, of at least two distinct and mutually exclusive conditions.

    So if we are in agreement on this point, why would you insist on treating them the same way? That would be like treating someone with a stomach ailment, say acute food poisoning, the same as someone with a broken arm. Would you not agree that two different treatment therapies would be most beneficially appropriate. Would it not be harmful to the point of negligence to treat the broken arm with a stomach pumping and the food poisoning with a splint?

    Such is the case in the treatment of people who are suffering from an acute addiction to cross dressing. They require a different, much less invasive treatment regimen than people suffering from a complete a total psycho-sexual disconnect. As you have noted, Transsexualism, as opposed to a simple (possibly sexually motivated), addiction syndrome involves a highly complex set of conditions and I will be the first to admit that it is difficult to distinguish the two.

    Nevertheless, as you have probably noted from your extensive review of the existing literature reconfiguration of the genitals and endocrine system can be a highly effective therapy for a tiny percentage of the population exhibiting these gender dysphoric symptomologies. The key issue which absolutely no one is willing to address for fear of being labeled “transphobic” or bigoted, is the question of proper and rigorous diagnosis and screening of candidates.

    This was done in the old days, (pre-1970’s), but such screenings and “gatekeeping” has fallen into disrepute under the onslaught of the militant transgender movement demanding “equality” for all. This is just like the illegal immigrants who have taken over California demonstrating and demanding “documents for all without restrictions”. Don’t believe me? Google it.

    The problem with this progressive “one size fits all” mentality and “social justice/equality” meme is that open borders and unrestricted access to SRS and “sex change” therapies will just result in more chaos and suffering for everyone involved,

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  10. thorin25 says:

    Yes but I see overlap between the two categories, where you don’t seem to. Some people don’t fit neatly in either category either.

    Yes, they most certainly need different kinds of psychological help, and treatment. But I would hold fast to that it is never “treatment”, for either group, to take someone’s healthy body and remove healthy body parts because of a psychological condition where someone is confused about their body. In the case of medical intersexual conditions (not a healthy body), problems with the body that the doctor can see, medical surgeries would make sense in these cases. But from all that you’ve said, it sounds like you are clearly not referring to intersexual conditions, but rather some kind of only partially defined transsexualism – psycho-sexual disconnect – which doesn’t sound different to me from what the majority of transgendered people are saying about themselves – the people you vehemently are distancing yourself from.

    For a bit of insight in how I see that counseling would look a little different for crossdressers versus those who want to change their sex, you can see this post just for some tidbits.
    https://healingcd.wordpress.com/2015/11/04/giving-pastoral-care-to-a-crossdresser-or-transgendered-person/

    Until you can give me some hard scientific evidence for how we can know who is a “true transsexual” like you and who is not, I will continue to talk about transsexuals and transgendered people in the same category as anyone else who feels discomfort about their sex, their body, and therefore are wanting to live as something they aren’t (and in many cases pursuing surgeries for that reason). As opposed to those crossdressing purely out of a sexual addiction. But again, there is overlap.

    If you are still not sure what I think, you can read this FAQ which I generally agree with if you want to see how I am using terms:
    http://parakaleo.co.uk/

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  11. The Sceptic says:

    “Until you can give me some hard scientific evidence for how we can know who is a “true transsexual” like you and who is not, I will continue to talk about transsexuals and transgendered people in the same category as anyone else who feels discomfort about their sex, their body, and therefore are wanting to live as something they aren’t (and in many cases pursuing surgeries for that reason).”

    And therein lies the problem with men who really have no clue, much less understanding, speaking from the “on high” of their own ignorance. All you need to do to see how well that is working out is to look at the current state of affairs in the trans* “community.

    It seems insane, or the height of arrogance to believe hat because you have no direct awareness of something or have never experienced something directly, that it does not exist. Have you ever experienced Mt. Everest? No? Well then I guess it must not exist.

    Give me a break! “Some people don’t fit neatly in either category either.” Right. I guess that must be like being “just a little bit pregnant, but not quite.”

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  12. thorin25 says:

    Like I said, I believe such people exist, clearly, I disagree with your treatment option. I’m not sure why that is difficult to understand. We are clearly talking past one another, so let’s please stop. I don’t have time for this. Sorry. It is what it is.

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  13. The Sceptic says:

    So if such people exist who most obviously and demonstrably benefit from a full medical transition, why are you so opposed to such treatments. We obviously agree that “such people” exist.
    Rather than continue to try and end this conversation why not explain to me and your readers why you would refuse such life saving treatment to that tiny minority of the population that most obviously DO benefit from doing what is required to be at peace in their lives.
    Look, I wholeheartedly agree that this treatment is not for everyone and harmful for most,but why allow your own personal fears and biases to so negatively impact your otherwise rather clear thinking?

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  14. thorin25 says:

    I don’t see a demonstrable benefit. I don’t think it’s an obvious benefit. I don’t think that it’s “life saving treatment.” I won’t want to get into a huge conversation about this. Just search my blog for the topic “transgender” and you can see my thoughts about this that I’ve written extensively on.

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  15. The Sceptic says:

    “I don’t see a demonstrable benefit. I don’t think it’s an obvious benefit….just search my blog for the topic “transgender” and you can see my thoughts about this ”

    Exactly! You are 100% sold on your transgender model. You are intentionally and obstinately blind to the truth. Here is a NEWSFLASH for ya. That model is severely flawed which is why it doesn’t work. SRS, (or “sex change” surgery) is a HUGE mistake for people fitting the transgender model. It will only work for people with a complete psycho-sexual disconnect: IE a transsexual.

    That is why it is so crucial for you of all people, as a counselor and spiritual advisor to understand that distinction. Just as you cannot “pray the gay away”, you cannot help a “true transsexual” by counseling prayer and abstinence.

    You ask for “research” and “scientific proof”. I am not sure it exists and here is why. There are too few of us and when we are encountered by researchers which is not often as we avoid them like the plaque, we are discounted as statistical anomalies Well guess what. We ARE statistical anomalies to the point where we simply do not exist….except we do.

    We are exceedingly rare and well hidden by design. Why you ask. Because when we are exposed, we are subjected to the same ridicule and morbid curiosity as your typical cross dresser/transvestite, now better known by the PC term, “transgender”.

    So that my dear friend, is why I will continue to rail against your intransient ignorance. Because every time you equate me with a transgender, you insult me in the same way as I would insult you by labeling you a closeted homosexual.

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  16. Temptedsinner says:

    Transgender, transsexual, transatlantic, transformer, translate! I don’t care.
    What I do care about is this whole agenda thing which is being shoved down our throats. Being or at least believing at one point that I was trans-something or another, I think gives me a little bit of a unique viewpoint, as each of us has our own.
    The spectrum is huge each one of us and our journeys are different. There is no one size fits all…. In fact I have bought that size in many things, it never did fit very well. 😉 Each and every one of us deserves dignity, respect and love. Compassion and mercy! This is what we are called to do as humans and followers of Christ.
    Let us just look at the “bathroom debate”. Which is the subject of the article at the beginning of the blog post. First off this person looks like a girl. If you are passable and have to pee then go into the ladies room and pee. Keep quiet, do not wear a name badge that says “Hello, my name is George”. Nobody is even going to look at you! Dressed as a passable woman they would probably cause a ruckus by going into the men’s room. Maybe even get beat up, which is unfortunate and wrong. By the way there are similar facebook posts of a genetic female with facial hair, tattoos who looks like a man. Who identifies as a man. If they came into the men’s room I wouldn’t even give it a second glance or thought.
    In spite of my best efforts I never considered myself as being passable. Anybody who may have seen me on some of my braver adventures probably just saw a “mess in a dress”. Having said that, I do have to admit that there was a certain amount of anxiety laden excitement at merely being seen. By excitement I am NOT talking about arousal. No, I am talking about being seen as the person that I felt that I was. Yeah, I know… complicated! And let’s face it gurls, most of us do not “pass”. We all have this penchant for female attire for a multitude of different reasons. If you have been online long enough I’m sure you have heard plenty of reasons why we are the way, we are. In a lot of cases we have adopted or said “me too” as we read or converse with others in the CD and TG communities. “Yeah, I feel that way too!” A little bit of the power of suggestion. Here is one difference that comes to mind. Real women do not obsess over their clothing. They get neither a rush nor a feeling of tranquility as they slip on their dress, nylons or any other article of clothing. It’s just clothes!
    As the title of this blog suggests we are cross-dressers. Perhaps some of us are more sensitive than the text book male? Or we find that there is just something naughty about cross dressing? Or it is just comfortable? There are too many reasons to list.
    Does that give me the right as in my case a fetishistic CD to impose my own personal cross on you? On your wife, daughter or grandmother? Does it give me the right to make you (them) feel uncomfortable while trying to go to the bathroom?
    Assuming that mostly guys are reading this. Let’s say that you are out somewhere with your teenage daughter. The mall, a road trip, fast food joint, anywhere. She goes to use the restroom and you are nearby waiting. You notice, what you think is a middle aged CD walking towards the restrooms! What are you thinking? Are you hoping that this person goes to the men’s room or the ladies room? What if they go into the ladies room? …. Where does your head go at that point? … I would want my daughter out of there NOW! The fact is that my daughter, wife or grandmother is in an uncomfortable situation to say the least. Worst case scenario she is also in a vulnerable situation.
    The place where I work has converted some sets of restrooms to being gender neutral. The “conversion was to remove the labels and put a lock on the exterior doors that then say “occupied”. OK, I get it! I have used both sides the former men’s and the former women’s, for no other reason than I had to pee and didn’t want to go all the way to the other set that is labeled for each gender. But in designing the facility, the building somebody figured out that this building needed “X” amount of parking spaces in terms of restrooms as well as actual parking spaces for cars. LOL In this particular set of restrooms their are 8 parking spaces. 4+4 . In this particular equation 4+4 =2 Only two people can use the restrooms designed for 8 at a time. That sucks….. Places like Target can do what they want and they also need to put the $$$ behind what they claim to be inclusivity. Will they build more restrooms? Will they just be open to whoever wants to go in either side? IDK. I for one think that making accommodations for a small (very small) group can be good, however I view the Target decision as marketing.
    From a legislative angle, … well, hell, that is also marketing. They would eventually place more burdens on businesses which serve the public that must have public restrooms. There are no easy answers.
    I do also believe that there are some people that are more male or female than what their birth gender suggests. I also believe that there are some parents (very few) nurturing children to be the opposite sex.
    We need prayers, we as a country and world need to turn back towards God…. To beg for guidance and understanding. It is only in love that we can all get along…….
    The lyrics of this song come to mind right now. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ylnx0NA9X4
    Peace
    Tempted

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  17. The Sceptic says:

    Tempted. Your points on the bathroom are well taken and I share your feelings on that issue. It is an important issue and it does matter.

    What also matters is the meaning of word and meaningful communication depends on a clear and mutually shared understanding of what precisely is the meaning of the words used. Can you image the chaos if I was talking about a trip to Europe from the US and arbitrarily used the word the word ‘translated’ instead of ‘transatlantic’, or worse yet, ‘transgender’.
    Pretty silly I know. “Oh yeah, Mom and Dad. Charlie, my husband and I, are taking a transsexual trip to Europe this summer for our honeymoon.” Huh?

    Like

  18. thorin25 says:

    You said – “So that my dear friend, is why I will continue to rail against your intransient ignorance.”

    I am not trying to offend you. But you have not offered even a simple explanation scientifically or psychologically to differentiate “true transsexuals” from those who claim to be transgender or transsexual. The statements they make about themselves sound no different than your statements. If you insist on being offended, there is nothing I can do.

    If you want to stay on this site and have civil discussions, and not talk past me by simply repeating the same things over and over, then you are welcome. However, I’m not going to continue to discuss this with you. I do not have time for it. You can discuss with Tempted or others if you wish.

    If you insist on continuing to repeat yourself with nothing substantial to say, and continue to accuse me of ignorance and other types of name calling, your posts will be deleted.

    Like

  19. Temptedsinner says:

    Dear Skeptic,
    I agree with Thorin,….. If he types anywhere near as slow as me then it takes a lot of time. He and this blog are only here to help those of us who wish to consider that God does not make mistakes. I believe with all of my heart that some people have much have a much heavier cross than I do. The majority of what I do on a daily basis is very male. and it fits much better than the 1 size fits most, type of costumes that I used to indulge in.
    Try to receive this gentleman’s posts in the light which they are intended. I don’t think he has any ill will towards anyone.
    With out any animosity on my part, you do have a choice of being an asset or a hindrance on here.
    What does your heart tell you?

    Peace
    Tempted

    Like

  20. The Sceptic says:

    “The statements they make about themselves sound no different than your statements. If you insist on being offended, there is nothing I can do.” ~Thorin.

    Forgive me for pointing out the obvious that it is in fact you who are “talking past” me. Take for example your statement above.
    A transvestite like yourself, (or a recovering transvestite if you prefer), will argue that they cross dress(ed) for various reasons. Sexual relief, personal realization, comfort, relaxation etc. Where have I made any such argument? Are not transvestites/cross dressers included under the ‘transgender umbrella’? Are not these week-end, part-time and even fulltime cross dressers the ones clamoring for access into the private spaces of women? Where have I even raised this issue? Oh! It was you who raised this issue.

    Where pray tell, have I made any statements in anyway resembling anything like these rather standard TG positions?

    On the other hand you seem rather insistent if slightly obvious, at pointedly avoiding any effort to respond to or even to acknowledge a number of IMHO rather salient points. Would you like some examples?

    Like

  21. The Sceptic says:

    Examples:

    “…people born with a neurologically trans-sexed morphology, and trans-genders are not the same.”

    You admit that they are different yet you insist they are the same and should be treated with identical “conversion therapies”‘ illegal in many states.

    “…life-style cross dressers are now “trans-women” and this of course equals transgender which is of course a “spectrum”….these life styles/fetish driven behaviors/”conditions” have NOTHING to do with the medically treatable condition previously and correctly described as Transsexualism.”

    You acknowledge this, yet you insist on conflating these two distinct
    conditions and insist that the best “treatment” is prayer and counseling.

    “An individual born with this extremely rare medically treatable condition, can be essentially “cured” by under going a relatively straight forward medical protocol which realigns the person’s physical structures and endocrine balance to conform with the actual physiology of their brain. This is the treatment to address this misalignment. Once that person has successfully recovered from this rather painful process, they are, (IF PROPERLY DIAGNOSED in the first place), essentially cured. They can go on to live perfectly normal, healthy happy lives as productive men and women in society.”

    Your silence in response to this very salient point is deafening.

    Need I go on?

    Like

  22. The Sceptic says:

    Tempted, I really appreciate your heartfelt efforts at mediation and I can say with a clear conscious that I bear absolutely no animosity towards the author of this blog. If anything I feel great sympathy for his struggles and yours as well.

    You ask what is in my heart and what lies there is a great burden of gratitude for the many blessings that I have received through absolutely no merit whatsoever of my own, I owe everything I have, my life, happiness, prosperity, love…everything, to the mercy and love of our Savior.

    I would like to respond to this further in some depth, but at the moment duty calls and I must attend to the needs of others.

    Like

  23. The Sceptic says:

    So the question has been posed as to how I believe that I can be of some help rather than a hindrance. This is an excellent question and in truth rather difficult for me to answer and here is why.
    My perspective of this is totally different from yours or Thorin’s. My experience is much closer to that of the wives and lovers of these afflicted men. Remember that I have lived the entirety of my adult life as woman. I married my first husband at the age of 25 and I have been married ever since except for a couple of years between marriages. I am now just a year short of 70 so it really is quite difficult for me to see things from your (male), POV.
    I can only imagine and ask myself how it would be for me if my husband came to me and said he wanted to be, or dress/act like a girl. I think that most likely, after I stopped laughing, knowing that he was pulling my leg, and found out he was serious, I would be in serious trouble. Frankly I do not think that I could handle it and for me it would be worse than if he told me he had a terminal disease.
    At least for me, death is a normal consequence of life, and we have both had a great life, but wanting to be/act/dress like a woman….no. I honestly do not think that I could handle that.

    So having said that, how can I help. I can only tell you and the others here that what they are contemplating is madness. Complete, total and utter madness. If they cannot get their compulsion under control it will lead to the destruction of everything they value and hold dear.

    How can I say that with such certainty? I will try to be brief.
    After undergoing and recovering from what was then a highly experimental surgical and conversion procedure I was able to continue living without all the incredible insanity that goes along with trying to pretend to be someone that I clearly was not. I few years after that recovery I met and ultimately married a man who while he loved me dearly and had absolutely no idea about my medical history except that I was infertile, was simply unable to fulfill all my personal and emotional needs. A few years after the end of that ten year marriage I remarried and have essentially “lived happily ever after”. I never gave my distant, long forgotten past a second thought.

    About fifteen years ago I became aware, (via the media), of some tragic events involving a middle aged man who had decided to “change his sex” on the job. Obviously this did not go well, but the whole affair just seem terribly unfair and so I decided to reach out to this individual and was shocked by what I found.

    What I discovered was an entire sub-culture, supported and encouraged by a seemingly unholy alliance of medical professionals, psychologists and “trans-activists” who had somehow bastardized and co-opted what had happened to me so long ago and what I had experienced, into some “one size fits all” / “anyone can belong or qualify condition” which was defined as “whatever” anyone said it was that worked to justify whatever the hell they wanted to sell. The damage done to troubled and vulnerable people has been immeasurable as seen by the numbers of suicides and families destroyed.

    This is why I speak out to set the record straight. This truth is uncomfortable for many people as it threatens their belief systems and in some cases their livelihoods. Is this a help or a hindrance? I do not know, but this is what I have been called to do. I hope this answers your question and will help Thorin to understand that for a tiny handful of us, sex change therapy, as imperfect as it is, is our only hope for a normal life.

    I guess I should add, in the interest of full and total disclosure that yes, I prayed mightily on this. I prayed about this from the day I learned to pray and that I could actually communicate with my Creator. Whenever I prayed, which was more than daily and often, I always received the same answer: “Patience and Faith.” Patience, Trust and Faith. By the time I was twenty I thought that I had lost it all and it was then, in God’s good time, that he finally showed me the way. What is interesting to me in hindsight is that he showed me the way when I was very young, but I refused to believe. I lacked sufficient faith to surrender to God’s will and so I continued to run away from His path and hide….and suffer.

    It was not until having been totally exhausted by “The Hounds of Heaven” who pursued me relentlessly until I finally gave up and surrendered to His Will that I was shown the way clearly and guided through the fires.

    Like

  24. thorin25 says:

    Sigh, I’ll try one last time, then I’m done.

    It’s true that people crossdress for various reasons, but some have done so with the claim, same as yours, for a psychological disconnect between themselves and their bodies. And yet you continue to distance yourself from them for some reason that I don’t understand. Their stories sound much the same as yours. They always knew they were female, but didn’t realize it at first, stifled parts of their personality, got married, etc. And wish they transitioned as a child looking back. A lot of people who are under the umbrella of crossdressers or the T in LGBT, begin to refer to themselves as transgender which I take to mean people who identify with (or believe they are/should be) the opposite sex rather than a simple crossdresser who does it for sexual reasons but knows he is not truly a female. And these transgendered people could be living as women part time or full time. Transsexual would refer to someone who has gone through with the sex-change, identifying themselves fully as a woman. I know not everyone uses the terms that way. But that is the best for myself to understand it.

    The words have become meaningless in our culture because everyone is using them in different ways. You keep trying to use transsexual in a way that does not include the above people. And yet you do so without a definition that makes sense. Maybe I’m wrong, but your definition seems to be, “a true transsexual is one who is born transsexual.” That doesn’t make sense. What does that mean? What is this trans-sexed morphology? What are you looking at medically? Some neurological problem? You keep not giving me a simple link to look at to show me what you are talking about.

    “…people born with a neurologically trans-sexed morphology, and trans-genders are not the same.”

    I do not believe this to be the case. I asked you for evidence. You gave none. You only keep repeating yourself. I believe people like yourself and many others are born with psychological discomfort about their bodies / their sex. They exist. But this does not mean that they were born transsexual, whatever you might want to mean by that. It’s a psychological problem in my view, not a medical one. The only time you have ever tried to prove it was a medical problem was by referring to intersexuals which I clearly explained in my comment and my post what I thought about intersexual conditions. You seemed to be, in my opinion, conflating intersexual conditions with transsexuality, which so many in the wide LBGT community do, but it’s simply not correct as my post clearly articulates.

    I never once advocated for conversion therapies. I’m annoyed that you would say that. It makes it clear you are not reading carefully what I say, and are comfortable putting words into my mouth. Advocating for counseling is not the same as conversion therapy. I’m not sure why you said that at all.

    I also CLEARLY said that the two issues are different, and need different types of therapies and responses. What I said was the same between them was that in both cases, they both should not pursue surgery.

    I’m sorry, but this conversation is so frustrating. You are either a terrible reader, or just really confused by all of this. Because you keep saying that I’m saying things that I am not, and keep saying I’m not answering things that I did.

    You said –
    “An individual born with this extremely rare medically treatable condition, can be essentially “cured” by under going a relatively straight forward medical protocol which realigns the person’s physical structures and endocrine balance to conform with the actual physiology of their brain. This is the treatment to address this misalignment. Once that person has successfully recovered from this rather painful process, they are, (IF PROPERLY DIAGNOSED in the first place), essentially cured. They can go on to live perfectly normal, healthy happy lives as productive men and women in society.”

    I did indeed respond to this, though you said I hadn’t. I said I do not believe this surgery is a “cure” but rather a manipulation of a healthy body, that doesn’t address the psychological problem which caused the discomfort in the first place. You seem to be bringing up a new point here that somehow transsexuals have a different brain than others. Good, progress! But this has not been proven from what I’ve read, but again, as I’ve asked for like 10 times, if you want to reference any actual scientific data, I’d love to read it! But you keep disappointing me by spouting scientific claims with no evidence. From what I have read, they have noticed very slight differences in some transsexual brains, but it’s very unclear what those differences mean, and whether they were caused by the hormone and surgeries themselves, or if they were there from birth. It’s also not obvious or clear to assume that the brain is the total essence of who we are. As a Christian, I believe that our body is part of our real self and identity and not something to be cast away just because our brain might be a little bit different.

    Be careful, again I say, be careful how you respond again, because I’m losing patience with this conversation, for your attacks against my character, for putting words into my mouth, and for you not carefully reading what I say, and that you keep repeating yourself, rather than offering to back up your claims.

    If you don’t want to back up your claims, that’s fine! No one is forcing you. I don’t have to do so either. We can simply agree to disagree, which is probably the best thing to do at this point, so we can remain at peace and be on good terms, and not waste our time on an argument that is going nowhere.

    Like

  25. The Sceptic says:

    “Sigh, I’ll try one last time, then I’m done. ” ~Thorin

    Hmm….Just what is it that you are trying to do? Convince me that I am wrong and you are right? Or are you just trying to convince your self? Personally I have no interest in convincing you of anything as it is more than obvious that Jesus Himself could present Himself to you in the flesh as a woman, and you would deny Him.

    My reasons for engaging with you is to point out to you the errors in your beliefs. And let me be clear; this has nothing to do with our mutual belief and faith in God and Jesus as our Savior.

    “Their stories…Some people….sound the same…A lot of people….identifying themselves…”

    “The words have become meaningless in our culture because everyone is using them in different ways” Indeed. I think you have finally come up with this novel idea after my having berated you with it to no end.

    “You keep trying to use transsexual in a way that does not include the above people.” No…I do not “keep trying”. I continually and tediously point out to you that YES “transgender”, a term invented in rather recent history to “include” everything and everybody from a cross dresser to a gender queer and…of course those vanishingly few who MUST “get a sex change”.

    “And yet you do so without a definition that makes sense.” Gee, You can’t figure this one out your self? OK FINE! A transgender changes their GENDER ROLE in society. A transsexual changes their sexual morphology.

    And yes. I weary of this as well. You keep chasing your tail. You admit that these two distinct categories of people are different, and now you have even evolved to the point that yes, they do in fact require different protocols, yet you continue to insist, for reasons unknown and unstated, (scientifically of course), that medical interventions are NEVER appropriate. Are you a doctor? You can tell without a doubt what regimen of treatment is most appropriate?

    I have given you a clear example of someone who has in fact, and without any doubt benefitted from this life saving surgery, and yet rather than acknowledge that, and that it could/might apply to others, you come back with some sorry, (and in fact highly condescending) BS about “loving the sinner, (me) and hating the sin”.

    And BTW I sent you your much requested references. They did not post. I will try again.

    Like

  26. The Sceptic says:

    So I have posted these much wanted “scientific” research papers

    I have posted them three times. I guess they must contain something that you are simply unable to believe.

    Like

  27. The Sceptic says:

    The research on the “why” or “how” that happened is pretty clear and persuasive. Many substances in our environment can, and do, affect fetal development in utero.

    Most notable among these are a group known as endocrine
    disruptive chemicals, (EDC’s*).

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/10/081030111005.htm

    http://www.antijen.org/transadvocate/TS_EDCs.pdf

    http://jme.endocrinologyjournals.
    org/content/43/1/1.short

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1519860/pdf/envhper00375-0020.pdf

    Chief among these EDC’s as a potential cause of this neurological
    anomaly is Diethylstilbestrol*.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diethylstilbestrol
    1. ^ Michel A, Mormont C, Legros JJ (2001). “A psycho-
    endocrinological overview of transsexualism”.
    Eur. J. Endocrinol. 145 (4): 365–76.
    doi:10.1530/eje.0.1450365. PMID 11580991.

    2. ^ Selvaggi G, Ceulemans P, De Cuypere G, Van-Landuyt K, Blondeel P, Hamdi M, Bowman C, Monstrey S (2005). “Gender identity disorder:
    general overview and surgical treatment for vaginoplasty in male-to-female transsexuals”. Plast. Reconstr. Surg. 116 (6): 135e–145e. doi:10.1097/01.prs.0000185999.71439.06. PMID 16267416.

    3. ^ Dingfelder S (2004). “Gender Bender: New Research Suggests Genes and Prenatal Hormones
    Could Have More Sway in Gender Identity than Previously Thought”. APA Monitor on Psychology 35 (4): 48.

    4. ^ Pillard RC, Rosen LR, Meyer-Bahlburg H, Weinrich
    JD, Feldman JF, Gruen R, Ehrhardt AA
    (1993). “Psychopathology and social functioning in men prenatally exposed to diethylstilbestrol (DES)”. Psychosom Med 55 (6): 485–91. PMID 8310108.

    5. ^ Reinisch JM, Sanders SA (1992). “Effects of prenatal
    exposure to diethylstilbestrol (DES) on
    hemispheric laterality and spatial ability in
    human males”. Horm Behav 26 (1): 62–75. doi:10.1016/0018-506X(92)90032-Q. PMID 1563729.

    Like

  28. Snip says:

    I’ve been watching this argument increase in intensity. I doubt that the two of you will ever agree. I’m not going to jump into the argument as I think it is just going in circles.

    Back to the original post. The culture still expects a binary, one is either male and fulfills those rigid roles, or is female and fulfills those roles. There are some exceptions to this such as homosexual relationships where one will be more masculine and the other feminine, but even those relationships try to mimic the binary. This expectation is also set for the “trans” folk. Where trans women are not only expected to appear as women, but be shining examples of beautiful women. I believe that was the point of this post and I agree with it.

    “Scientifically there is no such thing as transgendered” -Joseph Berger

    I put that quote in just for you guys to think about.

    I’ve been really tempted to join in on the argument, but it keeps coming to me that I need to be peaceful and focus my fight on other things.

    As to my personal story, I would have claimed before I found this blog that I just had a shoe fetish, but desiring to wear them is very similar to many struggles here. Only 2 people know my story, my wife and a religious leader in the past. I’m now 2 years+ since I last gave in and acted out. Jesus has helped me accept who I am (I have a long way to go), and I’m at peace with where I’m currently at. I keep striving and Christ keeps helping me.

    Liked by 1 person

  29. CDwife says:

    Thorin you ARE a very patient man . May God bless you !

    Like

  30. thorin25 says:

    Snip, that is so great to hear! Thank you for sharing your story. I hope that the addiction has been dealt the death blow. But if you ever start feeling more temptations and desire prayer, you are most welcome to join our prayer group.

    For what it’s worth, I think the shoe fetish is just another form of a crossdressing fetish, sort of like part of the package instead of the complete package. Creating part of the woman for your own sexual pleasure instead of the whole body. I wouldn’t be surprised if a shoe fetish could turn into much more. There are also men who crossdress just the lower half, shoes, legs, skirt, etc. But not the top half. Anyway, I am so glad you are at where you are at! Such a pleasure to live life without being in bondage to controlling urges to where clothing not made for us.

    Like

  31. thorin25 says:

    Sceptic – The reason your comments were not working was because WordPress thought they were spam because of all of the links. I have it approved now though. Sorry about that. I was not trying to prevent you.

    Those links were exactly what I wanted, thank you so much. I can honestly say I am very interested and eager to read them.

    However, I am at a very busy point of my life and ministry right now, and you’ve given me what amounts to a book to read. So I may not get to it for a while yet.

    However, it is at the top of the mountain of books and links I have saved to read on these topics. So I will prioritize reading them sooner than most of the other links and books.

    Like

  32. The Sceptic says:

    As you may have noted, I have been reluctant to provide you with these links. Primarily the reason is that they are instantly seized upon by the TG cabal to justify their own situation/symptoms/lifestyles. etc. In addition these links are highly esoteric and difficult to digest. I never made it past the first few paragraphs as I never had any need to listen to, or study, the opinions and conclusions of those that had no direct experience or understanding of what was actually going on inside my head.

    All they had were their best guesses based upon the second hand accounts of others, who frankly were experiencing totally different thoughts, feelings and emotions. I put these together for you, as an aid in your efforts to understand why a seemingly “normal young man” with a perfectly healthy physical body would undergo such painful and potentially life threatening medical procedures.

    Believe me when I tell you that doing that was the very last thing I ever, EVER wanted to do. I knew the option existed from the time I was about ten years old and all I ever prayed for was that God would please “let that cup pass from me”. I did not want to drink from that cup!
    I just wanted to be and feel ‘normal’.

    If you ever want to talk about a leap of faith, well…you have found just the place.

    The truth of the matter is that I agree with Joe Berger: ““Scientifically there is no such thing as transgendered”

    The sexual binary does exist. God created man, as well as the other mammals, male and female. Anything else is an anomaly. The question is how to deal with, react to, engage with those that are different from the cultural norm. In most Western societies, cross dressing is seen as an unacceptable aberration and except for certain limited segments of the LGBT where this is some limited if grudging “acceptance”, it is generally frowned upon.

    Personally I see it as an addiction with all the usual and identifiable side effects. My best advise is to treat it as you would treat any other addiction, be it smoking, drinking, gambling or drugs. The problem with not treating it as such and instead confusing or conflating it with a completely different condition is that then the treatment procedures for addiction are ignored and the behavior is sanction as some form of congenital defect that must be treated differently….BIg, BIG mistake.

    Anyway. Good Luck to you all and keep up the good work.

    Like

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